Monkey lord cost reduction.

Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Stratocaster » 25 Feb 2013, 01:37

Slow turret rotation and minimum range is intended. The laser has 4000 dps. The thing is humungous, yet the ML is still loaded with other weaponry and counter intel. It's a lean all terrain weapons platform.

ML isn't useless. You're just using it wrong. It can't go up vs other exp 1v1 nor go up against firebases with a lot of firepower. It is meant to sneak attack poorly defended areas. If you see multiple T3 PD under shields or a GC/Ytho, you shouldn't head directly into it. I find it's useless end-game more because it really can't avoid confrontation with the GC/Ytho 1v1, or dies before it gets close to anything valuable, and when it dies, it leaves a "give of mass" to the enemy.

Build up many if you want to push through such. They're good as defense, so having 1 hanging around isn't totally useless. Having one might make an enemy player switch from making ASF to making air to attack ground, maybe giving your air player an advantage. Move it around out of omni and make the enemy worry over it. Plenty of strategies to use with it. Suggesting to make it more of a rush unit, well before any GC/Ytho, or enough T3 PD or T3 bots can be produces is imba. Suggesting to make it able to break through with brute force is like trying to make it like the GC/Ytho, which I don't think fits as the Cybran have 2 land exp.

You could already tell it would not pass a vote to be cheaper from the discussion. Wasted potential for maybe a slight tweak to the ML. I think it needed a little boost to find a better end game role, but I suggested something more sensible, such as +0.25 speed and bolter range reduced to 45, to "pay for the speed increase". This change is small enough for people to not think it's imba, but opens up a lot more strategy since it's slightly faster and gives you the option of trying to outrun its biggest counters, get further before it dies, and close to gap to use its primary weapon just a bit sooner. If you wanted to make it more powerful, with stronger bolters, hp, range, torps, AA, without offsetting other stats, the cost would have to go up.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Supreme321 » 25 Feb 2013, 04:04

Stratocaster wrote: it really can't avoid confrontation with the GC/Ytho 1v1


How are we suppose to fight a GC or Yotha then? Since the megalith is too expensive to be good counter (assuming you opponet is paying attention) then are we suppose to ignore these exerimentals and let them walk straight into our base. Also, how about maps with chock points that have no other way around? Is the monkey lord suppose to just magically fly above them and then waltz into their base, no.
Ze_PilOt wrote:Once it's done, I will give a little preview thingy so you can test and break it :)
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby brn4meplz » 25 Feb 2013, 06:08

The mass you save on a ML can easily be put into units that can help you fight the GC or Ythotha.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Sunny » 25 Feb 2013, 20:35

Stratocaster wrote:ML isn't useless. You're just using it wrong. It can't go up vs other exp 1v1 nor go up against firebases with a lot of firepower. It is meant to sneak attack poorly defended areas.


This made my day! Apparently, ninja Mavor strategy is coming soon. Seriously, you need 20 t1 arities to "sneak attack poorly defended areas", they will totally kill anything in seconds, even medusas will do! Or use engies and build a t1 PD or just reclaim anything alive. If you want it to pop up from underwater, build 5 wagners instead. Well, even firebeatles will, probably do. But who knows? Nobody ever built one.

For now, I would pay 22k mass only to rename ML somehow funny in totally won game, but that's it. A funny toy. For a game half-real, I would rather set fac rally point for Bricks near enemy's base.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby BRNKoINSANITY » 25 Feb 2013, 21:10

I see 2 flaws with the arguments here....

1. Why are you sending a monkey in without escort in med-late game? Send it with a group of bricks... even 5-6 bricks with a monkey will easily kill a GC. When entering a firebase, people naturally target the biggest unit, eg. the monkey, while the 5 bricks wreck everything and the monkey soaks up most of the damage. If you are worried about the stealth aspect use mermaids or mobile stealth to cover the bricks and whatever else you send. Alternatively, ask a UEF or Sera player for an engy and build some shields.

2. If you are worried about the monkey being weaker than it's equivalent mass in t3, ALL exp are weaker than equivalent t3. Just for kicks, after reading all this the other day, I played a thermo. As you know, everyone spams only t4 and there is just a huge clash in the middle. I built no t4, only set up a massive brick spam with hives and 2 factories. Guess what happened! EVERYTHING died. Ythothas, Megaliths, Fatboys, PD, everything.


The problem with the t3 spam is that it took 40+ fully upgraded hives to bottom out my eco. The t3 took far longer to build and it took way too long to set up the spam. If my team had not covered me I would have died to the first 2-3 t4.

The monkeylord is not any weaker relative to t3 than the other t4 bots are, and neither is it inferior to the t4 themselves. It is just simply not made to be used for a full frontal throw away attack.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Rediska » 25 Feb 2013, 22:01

I dont want to say, but ML need nothing I think. I thought it needs speed buff of increasing turret rotation, but no.
Cyb are very good in early game and rush tactics (if no water and hover's domination) so keep it. All you need is teamplay. In 1v1 nobody let you EXP rush but you have stealth and cheapest shields (they like a paper, but enough for quick PD push)
I adore FA.
But I have all the right to hate it because I cant really play any other RTS anymore because of it. They looks like small boring sandboxes without sense. Thank you genious Chris Taylor!
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Sunny » 26 Feb 2013, 00:03

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:1. Why are you sending a monkey in without escort in med-late game? Send it with a group of bricks... even 5-6 bricks with a monkey will easily kill a GC.

Wrong, GC is capable of killing 22 Bricks by itself, it's the only exp, mass effective vs Bricks, it will totally destroy ML with bricks.

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:The monkeylord is not any weaker relative to t3 than the other t4 bots are

Wrong, it is. Or just watch tests I did for Nomads for reference, or do some basic math. It's like 30% weaker for mass than GC or Sera bot.
BRNKoINSANITY wrote:and neither is it inferior to the t4 themselves.

It is.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby BRNKoINSANITY » 26 Feb 2013, 00:54

No offense Sunny, but you are actually wrong on all counts. I did sandbox testing and here is what I came up with.

Results---

Monkey and 6 bricks vs GC -> GC dead, monkey at 15-25% health, 2-3 bricks remaining depending on angle of approach. I realized after testing that actual mass equivalency would be monkey and 5 bricks, but I think the result would not change.

GC vs equivalent bricks (21.5, I used 21) -> GC dead in most cases. I don't know why, but sometimes the grappling weapon seems to work better than others... worst I got was all bricks dead and GC at like 8% health with full frontal attack so GC did not have to turn and bad micro on the bricks. Best I got was GC dead and 15 bricks alive with the grapplers seeming to be a little off and approaching from the back. Most of the time the GC is dead with bricks left over.

Monkey does lose to GC in head on 1v1, but only if you are stupid enough to send one by itself vs a unit with more health, longer range, and vision range to negate any stealth. The monkey is faster than a GC however and can fire in 360 degrees so I would actually take the monkey over the GC anyway.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Sunny » 26 Feb 2013, 01:17

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:No offense Sunny, but you are actually wrong on all counts.

No offence taken, but where is the replay? I want to see the micro. The only real scenario, I can imagine, is with focusing GC on ML.

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:I don't know why, but sometimes the grappling weapon seems to work better than others...

No surprise, but I know. This is because tractor claws range is different from lazer's.

Upload the replay, please, so that we could see it. I already uploaded one on forums with ML and GC vs Bricks tests.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby brn4meplz » 26 Feb 2013, 01:52

Why would Bricks be your frontline unit in assisting you vs a GC.

You know that bastard has Tractor claws. You could just as easily put one of your X T1 land factories on Scout production, or mantis.
Shit you could just use some of the T1 units you probably have laying around.

The GC claws don't kill those any faster then it kills a brick.
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