Monkey lord cost reduction.

Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 20 Feb 2013, 23:24

Don't make me close another thread.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Sunny » 21 Feb 2013, 06:01

JeVes wrote:The reality is that people are VIRTUALLY ALWAYS mass and/or energy stalling when building that first experimental.


Furthermore, if it's not so, you are WHETHER not buidling it effectively OR early.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Sunny » 21 Feb 2013, 08:32

The post I was answering to no longer exists, but I think, I'll still post it here.

Rocksteady wrote:If a player decides to build a t4 unit when he can't properly manage his eco around it then that's his or her problem


Stalling on mass means that build capacity of engineers assisting a project is more, than you san support with mass.
Being hundreds of percents of income negative on mass is an effective lazy way to prioritize mass spending distribution.
Stalling on energy is a bad thing, but with expensive project this might be good sign if a player spends mass storaged, he'd better negative on energy for 10 seconds then build excessive PPs.

Rocksteady, JeVeS, if we want to get a result from this thread, I ask you to abstract personalities in arguments, no matter how right you are :)

For Rocksteady, I woulf suggest a good excercise, I did in sandbox in past. You select a project (say T4, or nuke, or certain amount of units) and produce it ASAP w/o any resrictions. Say, if you can do a 22k Monkeylord on Isis w/o any help but w/o obstracles in 15 minutes (the best possible will be like 11 minutes!), this is rather good result. This is a great way to improve one's eco understanding.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Pathogenic » 21 Feb 2013, 20:08

Monkeylord with current balance is built quite frequently, by good players in competitive games. This alone should be enough evidence that it is in now way in need of a buff. It is a great unit that fulfills a special role of a good early game experimental. True it can be beaten by less than its mass in T3 bots, but this is how it should be. After all, monkeylord takes damage down to 1/4 health, but its damage output remains the same. A group of T3 bots gets reduced to 1/4 of their initial number, and their dps is reduced by the same amount. A monkeylord that assaults a base and barely survives to clear the defenses can have its way with the rest of the base, but T3 bot groups that manage to clear the defenses with only 1 or 2 left are much more easily dealt with.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby ICKEN » 21 Feb 2013, 20:33

i think the reason why so many players still build the ML is cause it WAS a very good unit in the past. cheap (too cheap) and fast. it was getting veterancy very fast which made it a unit worth to rush. but it was still beatable by shieldwalls + acu or a bit air. i think thats still in the mind of most players....

now the ML is at a stage where it does not matter if you build a chicken or a ML.

in my eyes the performance of the ML does not stand in any corelation to its price.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby JeeVeS » 22 Feb 2013, 11:26

Seriously, we need votes. A dozen rational thinking people need to acknowledge that ML is virtually useless at its current cost and vote YES to help fix it.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Petricpwnz » 22 Feb 2013, 13:45

Monkey is the the first unit to buff for cybran, every other unit is ok IMO. I don't know much about spiders in team games, but in 1v1 it's readlly UP, i can't stand against GC that my enemy gets for pretty much the same price, and i can't rush 2 spiders fast enough because i need tonns of mass for it.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Sunny » 22 Feb 2013, 17:01

JeeVeS wrote:Seriously, we need votes. A dozen rational thinking people need to acknowledge that ML is virtually useless at its current cost and vote YES to help fix it.


YES.

Options:
1. Make it cost 17k mass. (not less, but if more, the closer, the better). It was not OP being 17k mass.
2. Make it worth it's price (range 35 or speed serious buff).
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Voodoo » 23 Feb 2013, 04:17

JeeVeS wrote:Seriously, we need votes. A dozen rational thinking people need to acknowledge that ML is virtually useless at its current cost and vote YES to help fix it.


You can vote already. We have time, no need to hurry.
If you ask me, the monkey is cheap enough. It will kill nice team games if we buff him more.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby lapantouflemagic » 24 Feb 2013, 23:38

I usually play cybran, and i love monkeylords, but i have to admit that they're completely crappy compared to other XPs.

i disagree with making them cheaper, because they are already relatively cheap and still very powerful (and likely to be unstoppable if they arrive too early in the game, most people are not as good you think). however, i think it would be correct to make them more powerful for the same prize.

the main problem is the range of the laser, i think it should be as long as the aeon and seraphim equivalent but that's obvious, and maybe a bit more hit points would be great. something that would be cool to implement is decreasing the firepower with distance (since, well, that's what happens in real life) to compensate maybe. as well as increasing firepower on close targets obviously.

but what i find really annoying with monkeylords is the aiming system, the turret bearing the laser is too slow to rotate, and the aiming system tends to target the closest enemy in "distance to the monkeylord", rather than the closest in "turret movement time"

(for ex : imagine two parallel lines of units directed toward the monkeylord, it will try to blast the first unit from each line, then the second, and so on, while it would be way faster to toast entirely one line, then the second)

i have no idea if this is even possible to change this, but i wanted to say it :D

edit : okay, maybe the aiming system doens't work exactly as i described, but what i mean is that target selection is far from optimal
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