Monkey lord cost reduction.

[Kryo]

the laser range shouldnt be increased by much, because it has already higher DPS than e.g. GC laser.

maybe increase the range by 2 units.
Instead, why not double the bolter dps? They are long range and can then be usefull.

also little more mobility: increase turn rates, yaw rates, movement speed by 15-25%

also vision radius should be same as GC and Yoda

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/un ... 02,XSL0401

Anti Air Weapon could also be made "useful" to make the ML unique by saying its the only ground Exp with viable anti air?

you could also make the regen rate higher to 15 (yoda has 20, GC has 10)

so many ways to change the unit without making it cheaper, giving it a larger range, or more health. If it were just faster, so it could hunt down GC and Yoda for example)

[Ze_PilOt]

Ok, but it's not supposed to be a front-assault unit. You have the megalith for that.

what to use it then for?

Support ? Map control ? Anything else than throwing it blindly in an enemy base.

[JeeVeS]

It is really easy to rush, very hard/impossible to counter (when ennemy rushed it and youre still at T2 - no cheap or fast outrange - no omni - unit spam do not really helps)

In some way getting a spider is easier than getting omni ^^

Can even omni match the range of a T2 arty ? By the way, being a fan of T2 arty, i almost never seen them killing a spider, it just walks too fast. Fatboy is slain in pieces by T2 artys but not spider.

When spider pops out in front of defense line, even well defended ones, if it has the smallest T1 army with it, it will just make a huge hole and penetrate base.

How much mass do you need to get the T3 land facs + enough percies to counter it ? How much mass if you just rush it as cybran ACU builder ?

Dont talk to me about scouting, you can't scout EVERYTHING, especially when it comes to allow long range firing on stealth units.

i'll aways find it more usefull than a fatboy (just good for support, not for front line pushing), and cybrans have maybe the most awesome and complementary / affordable front lines XP of the games.

This is perhaps the most comprehensive list of uninformed, asinine noob comments that I've ever laid eyes on.

Here's an idea: if the enemy has a ML and you are still t2, YOU ARE HOPELESSLY OUTCLASSED. Do you really feel there should be an immediate, effective t2 counter to t4?

Getting a spider is in no way easier than getting omni.

Omni range is 200. T2 arty range is 128. Keep trying.

The reality is, a spider will not penetrate a properly defended base, especially if there is a fraction of the mass in t3 there defending.

Even if you somehow use only your ACU as the t3 builder (obviously leaving your manufacturing at t1/t2), percies will still be significantly cheaper and more effective.

Your fail point about scouting really gets me. Please write this down: At the stage in the game where MLs are being built (even rushed), you CAN always scout. It is ALWAYS your fault when you do not properly scout something. As much as you would love to sit in your own little world busily making mass fabs and SCU's, you will one day have to realize that this game requires constant interaction in the form of scouting. I'm sorry if I've ruined your life.

Lastly saying you find ML always more useful that fatty is so stupid I don't think it requires further attention.

Poch, you are rated at 500 on the ladder with 33% wins for a reason; you need to spend some more time figuring out this game before jumping to truly ridiculous conclusions.

Support ? Map control ? Anything else than throwing it blindly in an enemy base.

Please explain to me why I want a ML instead of a group of bricks and a deceiver. +.5 speed is not an acceptable use for 21k mass.

I offered 37 range because I heard suggestions of 40 from several high level players. 32 is not a significant change.

Torpedo dps of 200 isn't OP. A t3 sub does 335.

What it looks like to me is that everyone with a worthwhile opinion is content with not having to worry about a legitimate threat from a ML. Do you all really feel this was the developer's intent?

[Zock]

The range shouldn't be touched. Better cost or hp, if you need to buff it.

[Ionic]

The ML doesn't need buffed, it is a great unit.

[JeeVeS]

The range shouldn't be touched. Better cost or hp, if you need to buff it.

I agree, as a range increase changes it's role more drastically. Why is my original idea of a 9.5% mass reduction the end of the world?

[Ze_PilOt]

It was increased for a good reason.

[JeeVeS]

Clearly it was increased too much. It's time to decrease it "for a good reason".

[Stratocaster]

It just needs an end game niche. Having stealth and a low cost are its biggest strength ATM, offset by low HP and low range. Once the enemy has omni and some units that can make quick work of its HP, you would need to make multiple, but then when you consider the mass cost of multiple... I thought its speed, combined with turn rate, makes it vulnerable to other land exp (which have longer range, more hp, but less, DPS) makes it kind of useless late game, since it's basically locked into battle once it runs into those unit's range, as to not die without doing much damage.

That's why I suggested just the slightest increase of speed, 2.7 vs the 2.5 of GC and Ytho, and shorter range bolters, as to not give away its position too early. I honestly think 2.7 is on my upper limit and 2.6 is a bit conservative as far as a speed buff goes. Laser range should not be extended, as it's finely balanced for its massive DPS and to match the range of an ACU's OC, and a higher speed makes it more effective. Anyways, its vision is 32, which gives it just enough vision to wisely use a the laser at 30. Extend it, and you'd had the awkward/clumsy feeling of not being able to see what you're shooting at, which just isn't as satisfying as seeing something's HP bar get reduced to zero, in clear sight, and you wind up getting off-track with changes, trying to increase its vision and dealing with targeting bugs with the longer range laser. It has LOTS of room for tweaking in the AA and torp dps department, as I believe they may have been tuned around vanilla values.

Small changes! I was thinking that if testing proves that 2.7 turns out to be too fast, you can reduce it to 2.6 and give it a slight HP increase, and maybe a slight cost increase, depending on how much it's buffed, yet keep it cheaper than GC/Ytho. Just trying to address the specific weaknesses that makes it kind of useless end game, such as encountering GC and Ytho and being locked into battle, and the bolters giving away its stealthy approach. It needs to get in and assassinate high value stuff, not go head on with defenses and tanky stuff. Think LAB vs tank, or Loyalist vs Brick, or even Aurora vs Mantis, and the way you control them differently. Speed is very powerful stat--see how T1 and T2 land units have been tweaked. I'm surprised T3 ASF and T2 naval haven't been toned down. Example to show how a speed buff helps: If a player knows a ML is faster, maybe they won't attack from max range with a GC, and try to cut you off so you can't get away from them, effectively bringing them closer to the ML's weapon range, and the GC will be worse off as far as health goes compared to the old ML. If you play the mod supreme destruction, and play with the experimentals, you can sort of get an idea what "drastic" changes to xp can do to the game. It really makes it a different game that you have to learn.

Reducing its cost brings it out too early in the game, making it not so fun for the victim. I'd like to avoid that as much as possible. Hence why I'm offering suggestions for a compromise, as I do see that it could use a clearer role, rather than the current one of rushing and taking advantage of a small window of opportunity before the enemy can get counters. Since the Fatboy beats the Mega, I believe a small speed boost (offset by the shorter bolters) would make it a nicer Fatboy counter, making a ML+mega combined assault more versatile than double ML or double Mega assault.

[JeeVeS]

Strato, your argument is little more than qualitative guesswork.
+.2 speed isn't going to do anything. ML is not a late game unit and will never be without heavy modification. I'm trying to give it its intended purpose as an early experimental vice no purpose at all. I am proposing a 9.5% mass reduction. This is not drastic. This does not make it uncounterable. To anyone who disagrees: open up sandbox and send a ML at 10 percies. I'll give you a hint as to what happens: five of the percies survive. 12.8k mass to 21k mass.

I'm incredibly surprised this buff has received so much opposition.

The sad truth is that you have to remain conscious of your opponents options. Just like with a nuke or strat bombers, ML can end the game early. Just like with a nuke or strat bombers, there are multiple cost-effective ways of dealing with a ML. As it currently stands, ML is overpriced. There has not yet been a legitimate counterargument to this assertion.