Monkey lord cost reduction.

Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 15 Feb 2013, 18:25

I'd like to see monkeylord cost reduced 2k from 21k to 19k. Keeping in mind that ML's are slaughtered by 2/3 the mass in harbs/othuums/percies/bricks (without factoring in the even greater efficiency of using mobile shields), I feel that they don't currently have a cost effective place in higher level games. A main point of reference is the ythotha, which costs 19% more mass and 20% more power, yet has 49% more hp, essentially the same dps, half of that damage frontloaded with a huge AOE, 50% longer range than the ml's main laser (wtf!), the same veterancy, better AA, and a destructive death weapon.

If you truly feel that stealth, negligible 50dps torpedoes, a slight speed increase, and two 200dps bolters offset these deficits to make the ML worth 84% (based on mass cost) of the chicken, I'd like to hear your reasoning. Regarding stealth, a deceiver costs 80mass and will happily stay under a ML. A mermaid costs 600mass. If you really want to, you can fly a deceiver over the ML (submerged or not) in a transport. All of these options will cost substantially less energy than the 250E/S cost of the ML's stealth.

I believe the ML used to cost quite a bit less. I would venture a guess that the intention was to be an accessible experimental that, in equal economy games, couldn't be defended against by simply building one's own better experimental. With a mass difference of only 4k and 6.5k between GC and chicken respectively, people can currently do exactly that.

Yes, this is long and overly quantitative. I want to hear opinions before it goes to a vote.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 15 Feb 2013, 18:26

I'm against this, and my argument is : it was cheaper in 3599, and 90% of teamgames involving cybran was ML rush. Stupid.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby ColonelSheppard » 15 Feb 2013, 18:33

I'm for this, i think the ML needs a buff, it should be worse than in 3599 but at the moment it's just too easy counterable for it's price
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Ze_PilOt » 15 Feb 2013, 18:59

What I'm starting to like with the current direction is that T4 are less and less viable alone. (mostly because T3 is becoming more and more accessible)

- It's more "epic" to have a big T4 surrounded by your T3 army.
- It's more interesting strategically. Sending a T4 alone was/is basically a bet like nukes.
- It's also more effective.

ie. The ML price allow you to make some brick next to it.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Voodoo » 15 Feb 2013, 19:03

I agree with Ze_Pilot here. This change can destroy nice team games on little maps where you can rush a monkey faster then.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby HyperNova » 15 Feb 2013, 20:46

No to this. ML even builds fast with a semi bad economy :(.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby JeeVeS » 15 Feb 2013, 21:19

Ze_PilOt wrote:The ML price allow you to make some brick next to it.


And it will still be slaughtered by a fraction of the mass in just t3 units. It's not more effective, especially considering how ML has very low range. I'm not interested in being "epic" while losing every mass for mass encounter.

Exactly how often do you play 1v1 zep?

Voodoo wrote:I agree with Ze_Pilot here. This change can destroy nice team games on little maps where you can rush a monkey faster then.


I'm surprised to see you disagree Voodoo =(. I feel like you exemplified my point when you easily dealt with two MLs against deathly using percies and a fatty (despite a weaker economy to begin with) on canis 4x4 just the other day.

Do you really feel that a 2k mass shift will unbalance team games? If anything, having an accessible ML option on the table will encourage t3 and lower play for all factions, more careful com placement, and better scouting/airplay. Honestly, it has the hp of 5 bricks and there are plenty of ways to take it down.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby Plasma_Wolf » 15 Feb 2013, 21:26

I believe that the ML stealth is really useful and I fear that lowering the cost would make it viable to rush a ML before other players have an omni sensor.

YES I KNOW: scout, scout, scout, but tell me how you will be able to keep air units above an enemy ML long enough to cause some serious damage.

Oh, as a matter of fun fact, does anyone still have the replay in which an ML was rushed in 8 minutes on darozas?It cost 17000 mass at that point, another 2 less than the proposed change, and I think it quite clearly shows why the resource cost increase was done.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby CrayzyNath » 15 Feb 2013, 21:32

I dont think the ML should cost less. Its already very cheap. But i think the laser needs a slightly bigger range, bricks and percies have 35 range the laser only 30. give him 35 range aswell so he isnt as easy countered with heavy t3 units.
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Re: Monkey lord cost reduction.

Postby ZLO_RD » 15 Feb 2013, 21:47

ML is too weak agains percies and Megalith seems like weak agains Fatboy...
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