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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 15:32
by rxnnxs
Please read and consider!
And to make it short: THE FIRE BEETLE IS GOOD AS IT IS! Sorry for shouting, but i dont want this unit to be nerfed or whatever you call it.

If it is changed, then other ppl will complain (I can already hear it): "the fire beetle is too strong".
Others would start playing cybran just for the nice unit!

And one hint: If you read the post from me throughly, you will find out how to use the firebeetle right. No need to change how they are...
Unfortunately, I give away some nice trick I was trying to keep by myself. But if the firebeetle is changed, many ppl wil be upset. Whether the cybran (if its even more micro) or the other races if it is getting stronger.

I only (mostly) play cybran and like it for several reasons i cannot explain here and is not of interest.

I have looked at the replay and i can tell you that you used them wrong. Sorry to say this and yes, i am a noob BUT i use firebeetles a LOT and if you handle them right, you can kill the ACU in a situation as you were to 100%.
It is hard in enemy bases that are defended, and it would be hard for the enemy if it wasn't so.
But if you tell the Beetles the attack command in a place where they are further away then yours were (safe to the enemay, lets say a position double away as yours), they wait for each other to attack. They stay safe and go one by one..
If it wouldn't be like this, they would do like what you observed. They kill each other and do not come to the place they have to go to.

NOW PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE discussing any further.
If you have a switch to prime them, then the killing and ACU sniping would be MUCH MORE easier. Because they just have to reach killing zone and ACU is gone. AT ONCE
Others WILL complain.
If just one beetle is shot before they all reach the target, they are all gone. What a waste.
Enemy would say: "Beetle NOOB!!11 HAHAHA!"
There the switch ON/OFF would come in handy, but at the same time, the stats of the beeetle had to be changed. Never touch a running system... AND: It would be more micro. But well, THATS ok. BUT!:
Others WILL complain.

IF primed and loaded into a transport, they all make a blast that kills instantly. AGAIN, thats not fun, thats annoying. Others will be very upset.
(If you look at old TA, you could do nice things with the walking bombs I miss, OTHERS DON'T. THATS why the firebeetle is, like it is... In TA you could load only one unit in an air transport. But when you used many air transports AKA flying bombs, and had no AA at the enemy base, the stuff was gone!
If you took an sea transport, you could pack the transport full with the mines and they mad a BOOM you could only dream of in FA!!! If you never have done this, please try, its great! Because up to a certain amount, they sum up the explosion and THAT was an explosion!)

NOW, there is still the ATTACK option that you can use. Well, its also micro but better than klicking at T1 or T2 units directly.
Change the attack button from Attack to Ground attack (Because if you just tell the beetle to attack in normal mode, it goes there and stays there...pfff...). You know what i mean? I hope so. I am the noob..
I just now found out, that you can tell even the factories to do this in front so all units have this when built.
Unfortunately, there is no "roam" or "hold position" button that was present in TA.

And as a side note, there is also no height effect that was in TA but was rejected in FA.
(If you don't know what I mean: Build a Punisher or whatever shoots shells on a hill and one at the same horizontal or vertical position at normal ground. Press A for attack (well, here we go agaion: TA knows what you want, in FA you have to say it via the Ground Attack Button: They deliver "supressing fire". And if you go as far the range of the weapon allows, indicated by the attack reticule, you see the gun at the hill shoots further.).
Very bad, but well...


Back to where i left: So you produce firebeetles with an already set "ATTACK Ground" stance. Now press "A" where you want her to explode. It even shows you the splash radius. Here we go. That's all you need to know.
Now the firebeetles do what you want.
And they are even more powerful than you really need them to be. Three beetles are enough for a commander. And mostly they are fast enough to outrun the shots from the ACU.
Want to see proof? If interested, i look for a replay thats a nice representation how they wait. And I did not tell them to wait, they do it for you! (sorry, that was before i installed XP and got rif of windows7)

My 2 cents.

Re: Priming Fire Beetles

PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 17:34
by Wakke
rxnnxs wrote:I have looked at the replay and i can tell you that you used them wrong.


You do not adress the main issue of the replay: it shows how beetles have issues hitting moving targets, which is a real concern. This is smple to fix by setting the attack range equal to the blast range, as illustrated by pip and me.

rxnnxs wrote:But if you tell the Beetles the attack command in a place where they are further away then yours were (safe to the enemay, lets say a position double away as yours), they wait for each other to attack. They stay safe and go one by one..


While the beetles do leave some space between them when walking, they still clusterf*ck each other when attacking, especially a building. To test: select 5 beetles to attack a T3 factory. In the current situation they will fail (explosion killing the others). With the prime mod, you prime them, and they all explode on the building.

rxnnxs wrote:IF primed and loaded into a transport, they all make a blast that kills instantly. AGAIN, thats not fun, thats annoying. Others will be very upset.


This is not the case. The beetles die the moment the transport dies, ie when it is still in the sky. Ground targets are not harmed.

Re: Priming Fire Beetles

PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 20:56
by rxnnxs
You are totally right.
I think my memory shuffled there something.
I tried and it is like you say. If I target a fabric they blow every second up with no effect. they also, in the normal attack mode, go to the enemy and sit still.
and if you tell em a ground attack, they go there and blow up but also every second beetle is destroyed because it is too close to the blowing.
uhh, well then i told crap.
or maybe they behaved better before...?
the best would be, they keep more distance. or the radius is too big. one of them, blow radius or distance has to be fixed.
also they act kind of slow, but i guess thats wanted. better would be if they destroy on impact. but what do I know..

Re: Priming Fire Beetles

PostPosted: 15 Feb 2013, 13:20
by Nombringer
I don't think they are OP at all, if you consider the cost of a t2 factory, then 4 firebeetles (3 to kill ACU, one that ACU will overcharge) and the fact that they are incredibly fragile with 300 hp.... I just don't see them being used that much in there current state, the only window I find to use them is if you go fast t2 on small maps, but if you do that then, basicly your fucked if the snipe does not work, because you have invested a ton of mass in a unit that has not done anything.

Re: Priming Fire Beetles

PostPosted: 17 Mar 2013, 19:14
by rxnnxs
but they really suck. they stand around all the time and then they do nothing.
They do net even go OFF!!!

Re: Priming Fire Beetles

PostPosted: 19 Mar 2013, 22:25
by Firestarter
Tested these again today - 6 of them alone (was a drop) just about killed a full health EUF com. Worked pretty seamlessly apart from one who sat in front of the comm for one second.

400% better than before this patch :D

Re: Priming Fire Beetles

PostPosted: 25 Mar 2013, 00:13
by A_vehicle
To fix the fire beatle, just fix the firing radius. Currently the explosion has a 3.5 unit radius, but because the MaxRadius is 4.5, the unit thinks it can fire the weapon even when it is out of range. Either increase the damage radius to 4.5 or decrease the MaxRadius to 3.5. You may also wish to increase the firing tolerance to 180 degrees, just because and just in case.

EDIT: oops, Pip already suggested this...