Priming Fire Beetles

Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby pip » 12 Feb 2013, 20:12

Making several firebeetles chain react will make them even worse than they are now, because shooting a single firebeetle will probably cause the death of several others but also of a good chunk of the Cybran player units. Firebeetles have only 300 HP, a few t1 units are enough to destroy one in no time. So a few t1 units will be able to counter ten times their mass cost in no time. I don't see how it fixes the unit at all (and if ACU is nearby, he will die too).

It will be even easier to counter than it is now, much more risky, prone to fail even more. I know chain reactions are fun, but the point is to make the unit usable, not to make it even more a troll unit than it is now.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby Wakke » 13 Feb 2013, 10:06

pip wrote:Making several firebeetles chain react will make them even worse than they are now, because shooting a single firebeetle will probably cause the death of several others but also of a good chunk of the Cybran player units. Firebeetles have only 300 HP, a few t1 units are enough to destroy one in no time. So a few t1 units will be able to counter ten times their mass cost in no time. I don't see how it fixes the unit at all (and if ACU is nearby, he will die too).

It will be even easier to counter than it is now, much more risky, prone to fail even more. I know chain reactions are fun, but the point is to make the unit usable, not to make it even more a troll unit than it is now.


Hmm, not sure I agree, you seem to forget they do not chain react by default. Remember they are not primed by default, and priming them when they are among your units is a bad idea indeed.

Be sure to experiment thoroughly, it's not that straight forward to use them effectively.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby pip » 13 Feb 2013, 11:32

Wakke wrote:
pip wrote:Making several firebeetles chain react will make them even worse than they are now, because shooting a single firebeetle will probably cause the death of several others but also of a good chunk of the Cybran player units. Firebeetles have only 300 HP, a few t1 units are enough to destroy one in no time. So a few t1 units will be able to counter ten times their mass cost in no time. I don't see how it fixes the unit at all (and if ACU is nearby, he will die too).

It will be even easier to counter than it is now, much more risky, prone to fail even more. I know chain reactions are fun, but the point is to make the unit usable, not to make it even more a troll unit than it is now.


Hmm, not sure I agree, you seem to forget they do not chain react by default. Remember they are not primed by default, and priming them when they are among your units is a bad idea indeed.

Be sure to experiment thoroughly, it's not that straight forward to use them effectively.


I didn't comment on your mod, but on Skilzat's post. Your mod has the drawback of making the unit too complicated IMO (very micro intensive). I would personnally never build Firebeetles if they are complcated and very risky to use in the heat of battle.
It also doesn't fix the main issue reported by Chosen, i.e. they explode before they reach their intended target if the targets move away (check his replay, that's the reason of this thread to begin with).

You can use my stats tweaks to fix the issue if you want to keep the "priming" ability, but I still think that Firebeelte should be immune to other firebeetles explosions in default mod (not primed) in order to be usable as assassin units.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby Wakke » 13 Feb 2013, 15:08

pip wrote: Your mod has the drawback of making the unit too complicated IMO (very micro intensive).


Maybe, but I'm not sure. Typically you would do the following: move in the fire beetels to attack. When they are close to the enemy and away from your other units, prime them. That's only 1 extra click. And it removes the need to introduce magic fire beetle armor.
Also remember that beetles exploding when shot down also has positive effects: no longer will the beetle be shot down just a few meters in front of its target without a boom.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby pip » 13 Feb 2013, 19:02

Wakke wrote:
pip wrote: Your mod has the drawback of making the unit too complicated IMO (very micro intensive).


Maybe, but I'm not sure. Typically you would do the following: move in the fire beetels to attack. When they are close to the enemy and away from your other units, prime them. That's only 1 extra click. And it removes the need to introduce magic fire beetle armor.
Also remember that beetles exploding when shot down also has positive effects: no longer will the beetle be shot down just a few meters in front of its target without a boom.


Magic fire beetle armor? Are you not aware that FA uses "magic" to improve gameplay for several, much more used units:
- t1 arties don't do friendly fire, so all units are "magically" immune to a weapon (and it's not just arties that are immune to their weapons but all the faction's units, following your reasoning, we should abolish this)
- buildings and ACU are "magically" immune to overcharge
- Higher tier units are "magically" immune to EMP.
- Loyalists are "magically" immune to Tactical missiles (and this looks to me much more like a "magic" trick than being immune to your own kind of damage).
- Above all, Loyalists are also immune to their own "stun explosion" which is very close mechanic to the firebeetle death explosion.
And I'm sure the list goes on. I didn't create the armor condition lua, it was created by GPG, it's a part of the game, even if minor.

Why would Cybran engineers be unable to make a t2 device impervious to its own kind of explosion when they did it for the Loaylist? It's not magic, it's just science ;-)
Don't forget that it doesn't apply to any of the other cybran units. And don't tell me Firebeetles are not a special kind of unit that justify this sort of small special ability (I prefer this term to "magic").

I see the point of priming a single firebeetle so that it still deal damages when shot. However, if I use several firebeetles, as is usually the case, and prime them all, they will all die and most them among my own troops if i don't miro them like crazy, or i need to prime one or two at a time. It's micro intensive. I understand why you want to do this, but IMO, it's too complicated, and I suspect it would probably make them OP if you use them well, for instance, in conjunction with decievers (there is a reason GPG didn't do this to begin with).
I prefer to keep it simple, and fix what was previously decided : Firebeetles were supposed to be impervious to their own explosion the last time they were changed, but somehow, it didn't work. And they were supposed to work, they still can't hit moveing targets reliably. I fixed that too with some necessary balance adjustments to not make it OP.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby Wakke » 13 Feb 2013, 21:06

pip wrote:Magic fire beetle armor? Are you not aware that FA uses "magic" to improve gameplay for several, much more used units:
- t1 arties don't do friendly fire, so all units are "magically" immune to a weapon (and it's not just arties that are immune to their weapons but all the faction's units, following your reasoning, we should abolish this)

Do they? Then yes, it should be abolished. I see no reason for T1 arty not to do friendly fire. Besides, T1 arty is strong enough already.

pip wrote:- buildings and ACU are "magically" immune to overcharge


Yes that's true, but this one was absolutely required to not break the game. Note it also deals reduced damage instead of no damage at all.

pip wrote:- Higher tier units are "magically" immune to EMP.

Perfectly believable, does not feel like magic. Maybe their circuits are protected by an anti-EMP layer, who knows? Not in the same ballpark as a massive blast not scratching the paint on a fire beetle, imo.

pip wrote:- Loyalists are "magically" immune to Tactical missiles (and this looks to me much more like a "magic" trick than being immune to your own kind of damage).

Bad example. Yes Loyalists are immune to missiles and it's not magic, it's a laser hacking the missile's computer. And I'm more than willing to believe that within SupCom's universe :)

pip wrote:- Above all, Loyalists are also immune to their own "stun explosion" which is very close mechanic to the firebeetle death explosion.

Same as EMP not affecting T3 units.

pip wrote:However, if I use several firebeetles, as is usually the case, and prime them all, they will all die and most them among my own troops if i don't miro them like crazy, or i need to prime one or two at a time.


Edit: Don't prime them when they are amongst your troops. :)

pip wrote:I prefer to keep it simple, and fix what was previously decided : Firebeetles were supposed to be impervious to their own explosion the last time they were changed, but somehow, it didn't work


That is because the armor was set to take 10 % of the damage, and the damage was set to 4500 some patches ago. 450 damage will kill a 300 hp fire beetle.

Anyway, it's nice we can have this discussion so the beetle might become more interesting, as we can all agree they need changing. Just don't discard my idea too quickly, as it does require longer amounts of toying with it to see what's what.
Last edited by Wakke on 13 Feb 2013, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby pip » 13 Feb 2013, 21:30

Loyalist EMP affects every t3 unit in the game and even Experimentals like Galactic Colossus... The only t3 unit that is not affected is the Loyalist.

If t1 arties were doing friendly fire, it would be easy to use this to screw someone's own army and base by sending suicidal scouts in the middle of the arties, which would kill themselves and the units / buildings near the scouts.

Last time Firebeetles were changed was not in 3603 but in 3615. Here is what the 3615 changelog says:
- Firebeetle enhancements : You can ctrl-k the firebeetle to produce instant damage. They are not sensitive to each other explosions. Increased AOE to 3.5, firing tolerance to 4 and maxradius to 4.5.


That's when they got the ctrl+k feature, and got a small stat boost but as you can see, the immunity to their own death didn't work and the new stats for the weapon were not enough to make it work properly, hence the necessity to modify other things (I explained the reason for the new numbers I suggested).
It's necessary that the blast radius is slightly wider than the range of the weapon, so that they don't explode too early. Test it with a unit moving away. These are the things reported as not working by Chosen and that I proposed to fix.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby Wakke » 13 Feb 2013, 21:34

pip wrote:
Last time Firebeetles were changed was not in 3603 but in 3615. Here is what the changelog says:
- Firebeetle enhancements : You can ctrl-k the firebeetle to produce instant damage. They are not sensitive to each other explosions. Increased AOE to 3.5, firing tolerance to 4 and maxradius to 4.5.


I know, but it was changed to 4500 damage earlier, by GPG's beta patch, and that's what made 10% of the damage enough to kill 300 hp beetles.

pip wrote:It's necessary that the blast radius is slightly wider than the range of the weapon, so that they don't explode to early. Test it with a unit moving away. These are the things reported as not working by Chosen.


I will check it out. As mentioned in my post, I haven't considered stat changes yet, as I first want to test the changed core functionality (ie trying to get them to be viable without magic, yes I said it :D, armor).
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby Wakke » 14 Feb 2013, 01:41

I checked the issue with targets that run away and it is a valid point indeed.

To Ze_PilOt: whatever we do, the MaxRadius should never be bigger than the DamageRadius. Otherwise you will miss moving targets. This is really more of a bug fix than a balance tweak!

I updated the mod with:

- FiringTolerance = 360 (from 4), so no need to turn around to explode.

- MaxRadius = 3.5 (from 4.5), so it is no longer bigger than the DamageRadius, thus removing the issue of not being able to hit targets that run away.
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Re: Priming Fire Beetles

Postby MushrooMars » 14 Feb 2013, 03:03

May I suggest something? Build the Fire Beetle more like a base demolitions and havoc unit than a walking grenade. Yes, it is a suicide unit, and is therefore paired with the Mercy when it comes to balance and derogatory views, but it is pretty terrible at sniping ACUs. The ACU will kill 1-2 of the units before they even reach him, more if he has a gun upgrade, the Aeon ACU with the Sensor Upgrade is especially immune, as well as any ACU with a shield.

I'd much rather have the Fire Beetle as a cost-efficient base-demolitions unit. DoT explosion, large radius, high damage, long priming time, etc. Pretty much an alternative to Artillery or Tacticahurr missiles.
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