Mavor Accuracy Investigation

[Nombringer]

Just resurecting this thread for further discussion. Sounds like a good decision to me, are you still working on the code?

[brent_w]

I tried using a Mavor.

It's unbelievably terrible.
Completely useless.

It is actually less capable of consistently hitting a target and breaking through shields than a duke.
Two dukes are a hundred times more effective than a Mavor despite costing nowhere near as much.

When you compare it to how awesome the Aeon rapid artillery is and how awesome the Scathis is (even if quite expensive) I cannot fathom why anyone would make the Mavor this bad.

Can we please fix it?

[Ato0theJ]

While I wouldn't go as far a Brent, I agree (as mainly a phim player tired of fatties) that the UEF need another interesting and not totally under-powered experimental. If you compare the t3 and t4 (t3.5) arty, you will see that the Aeon salvation outclasses the mavor in nearly everything but range (not that that matters much in anything but 81X81) which is already twice that of t3. The salvation costs less, has more HP, DPS and AoE due to the spreadshot.

See the stats here: http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 02,UEB2401

UEF have very niche experimentals, but they seem to have done better than others in regards to what has been made useless and what hasn't (in engymod) considering the fatty is as strong as it ever has but the direct fire EXPs have been suffering cost to field value wise.

[IceDreamer]

Just resurecting this thread for further discussion. Sounds like a good decision to me, are you still working on the code?

I have the code safely stored away. I have revisited it a couple of times, attempting each time to track down the bit of code which controls the rate the barrel animates at, the rate the yellow bar refills, and to find some way of varying the explosive graphic size on the fly, and each time ending up tearing my hair out in frustration and storing it again. I'm not a good enough coder to figure this out.

I will only sanction the distribution at large of this script IF those who choose to help me get the resulting unit polished to MY satisfaction. This is meant to be a shout-out to John Mavor, and as such it must be nicely done.

If this script can be made to work properly, and is apporoved for FaF, then I can confidently claim the UEF will have the most awesome, destructive Experimental weapon in the game, albeit at quite a large cost

[Gyle]

I seem to remember the Mavor being retardely accurate in vanilla supcom. Like seeking out and nailing ACUs with pinpoint accuracy on a 40k map. I'm pretty sure its the way it is for a reason. But to be honest unless we are actually thinking about trying to bring it into gameplay is it even worth discussing? If anyone plays a game that's actually big enough to get one of these badboys online and protect it then it will end the game for them so quibbling about such things is kinda moot imho.

[Golol]

but it is very complex code right? it increases stats over time something like that?
wouldnt just bumping the damage and rof be enough? although homing projectiles would be damn awesome.

[Mycen]

I seem to remember the Mavor being retardely accurate in vanilla supcom. Like seeking out and nailing ACUs with pinpoint accuracy on a 40k map. I'm pretty sure its the way it is for a reason.

Oh, it was terrible. It would hit even moving targets with almost perfect accuracy across the map. I remember killing MLs and GCs sallying from the enemy base with a few shots.


In the games I've been playing with them lately I haven't found them to be notably underpowered. But I don't play on the same level as you guys, so I'm used to games where players have more time to do and build stuff than they might at high levels - I would defer to your calculations about what constitutes reasonable cost for damage. If you're going to make it more powerful though, please make sure we don't go back to how it was in vanilla. Regardless of how cool John Mavor might find it, Mavors really shouldn't be effective to the point where you can use it against mobile units as well as buildings, that's just ridiculous.

or increase the RateOfFire a little, perhaps to one shot every 6 seconds.

Six seconds? The base RoF is 8 seconds, right? So if you surround it with T4 pgens, it should fire about as fast as you describe (faster, actually) would be an effective RoF already, no? Why would changing its stats be necessary at all then? Honestly, I'm not sure why you used a Paragon surrounded by T3 shields as the benchmark for the Mavor's effectiveness, either. Considering that a Paragon costs more to build than a Mavor, and contributes nothing directly to a player upon its completion, it makes a certain amount of sense to me that a Paragon could 'beat' a Mavor in this fashion.

Do we really think that the Mavor should be impossible to defend against, able to single-handedly break through the toughest shielding?

but it is very complex code right? it increases stats over time something like that?
wouldnt just bumping the damage and rof be enough? although homing projectiles would be damn awesome.

Well sure, but that's an inelegant solution. Like you said, a fancier method of buffing it would be cooler.

While I wouldn't go as far a Brent, I agree (as mainly a phim player tired of fatties) that the UEF need another interesting and not totally under-powered experimental. If you compare the t3 and t4 (t3.5) arty, you will see that the Aeon salvation outclasses the mavor in nearly everything but range (not that that matters much in anything but 81X81) which is already twice that of t3. The salvation costs less, has more HP, DPS and AoE due to the spreadshot.

I don't really think that's an argument that the Mavor should be better, but that the Salvation should be worse. I think it has always been too powerful - it is supposed to rapidly fire submunitions that spread across a large area, but its damage is still focused enough that it can destroy T3 units in one shot, and it can destroy targets deep underwater? OUTrageous.

[RoundTabler]

I don't really think that's an argument that the Mavor should be better, but that the Salvation should be worse. I think it has always been too powerful - it is supposed to rapidly fire submunitions that spread across a large area, but its damage is still focused enough that it can destroy T3 units in one shot, and it can destroy targets deep underwater? OUTrageous.

Really? 200,000 mass, and can't break through 3 shields...!

As you can probably tell, I think the Mavor needs a buff, or a price nerf. The Scathis, for 83,000 mass is SOOOOOO much better than the Mavor.
Yes, I know it has a shorter range, but on most maps its range limit is pretty much not a problem.

[IceDreamer]

Oh, it was terrible. It would hit even moving targets with almost perfect accuracy across the map. I remember killing MLs and GCs sallying from the enemy base with a few shots.

In the games I've been playing with them lately I haven't found them to be notably underpowered. But I don't play on the same level as you guys, so I'm used to games where players have more time to do and build stuff than they might at high levels - I would defer to your calculations about what constitutes reasonable cost for damage. If you're going to make it more powerful though, please make sure we don't go back to how it was in vanilla. Regardless of how cool John Mavor might find it, Mavors really shouldn't be effective to the point where you can use it against mobile units as well as buildings, that's just ridiculous.

At 300,000 Mass, it cannot break through a below-average late-game shielding array. That, by definition, makes it 'Notably Underpowered'. Even now the cost has been brought down to 225,000, it is still nowhere NEAR powerful enough for that kind of mass investment. However, you are absolutely right, we do NOT want the Vanilla one back. It was too much, and the bug where it would seek out enemy ACU with no radar was way too over the top. My version of Mavor CAN be used against mobile targets, but only if you put a significant amount of its' time into targeting that one, single unit.

Six seconds? The base RoF is 8 seconds, right? So if you surround it with T4 pgens, it should fire about as fast as you describe (faster, actually) would be an effective RoF already, no? Why would changing its stats be necessary at all then? Honestly, I'm not sure why you used a Paragon surrounded by T3 shields as the benchmark for the Mavor's effectiveness, either. Considering that a Paragon costs more to build than a Mavor, and contributes nothing directly to a player upon its completion, it makes a certain amount of sense to me that a Paragon could 'beat' a Mavor in this fashion.

Nothing to do with costs. The reason I chose that setup of a Paragon ans Shields is because that is the exact kind of target a Mavor will try firing at. It SHOULD be able to penetrate three shields, regardless of whether or not there happens to be a Paragon beneath them. It can't. Also, I'm fairly sure Mavor no longer gets a RoF bonus from T3 PGens.

Do we really think that the Mavor should be impossible to defend against, able to single-handedly break through the toughest shielding?

It costs 225,000 Mass. For that you get 12 Spiderbots, which will penetrate ANY static defensive line. Yes, it should. When you consider that the entire point of this is to make it totally awe-inspiring to watch, and that I would not be adverse to my version of Mavor costing 500,000 Mass to build, yes, it damn well should end the game if you complete it.

I don't really think that's an argument that the Mavor should be better, but that the Salvation should be worse. I think it has always been too powerful - it is supposed to rapidly fire submunitions that spread across a large area, but its damage is still focused enough that it can destroy T3 units in one shot, and it can destroy targets deep underwater? OUTrageous.

Salvation costs 200,000 Mass. If they have built it, you SHOULD lose. It SHOULD be able to obliterate absolutely any target you point it at. The fact is they completed a 200,000 Mass unit, meaning you should have a 200,000 Mass advantage on the battlefield. If you cannot win the game with that, then you don't DESERVE to win.



All this is pointless anyway. Nobody has yet come forward with an offer of trying to get the unit polished up nicely.

[D4E_Omit]

Even now the cost has been brought down to 225,000, it is still nowhere NEAR powerful enough for that kind of mass investment.

Can't be more wrong in my opinion, the only reason to build a Mavor is because of an EXTREME turtle on 40x40+ water maps where your GCs just wont do it, it might be somewhat inaccurate but that isnt too bad since at time of building the enemy would have a giantic base anyway, so just targeting the middle would make 90% of the shots atleast hit, not to mention it one hits coms.. Salvation in the other hand might be more accurate but some shields (Non-Cybran) you can stop ONE from damaging pretty much anything (Anti nukes, paragon, nuke etc..)