The Novax

[Gorton]

I realise that Ze_pilot said no more threads about balance, but I just want to hear (read) people's opinions on the Novax.
While it is certainly true that under certain conditions and certain maps, it can be good, most of the time it's completely worthless. In my opinion it simply costs far too much for a role that you don't even need. For the same mass you could for example turn to the fatboy or a teammate and build a far more useful experimental/ or a nuke launcher. Two launchers, even.
As it is, I don't see a point to it. 28000 mass for harassing, even if it is technically unkillable, is just not worth actually building it.
Of course I could be completely wrong, in which case I want you guys to show me why, on paper and in practice.

(Zep, don't ban me )

Edit: The reason this is in suggestions and not discussions is because I want to know what can be done to make it work.

[Ze_PilOt]

Don't underestimate the intel factor. Also, did you tried it against navy ?

[Gorton]

I did yes. But for the same mass I built two Atlantis, and they worked better.
While I can see applications of forcing naval off your coast with it, that's still 28k mass. It's just too costly.
The intel is nice, but again, 28k mass. Spam 5 spyplanes, go over base achieves same result for far far less. For the intel purposes you'd want it to be there for a long time for it to be useful; and obviously spending that much mass will put you behind. If it doesn't, then your literally had 28k mass more; why don't you just build another fatboy instead and roll over them?

Warning: I say 28k mass far too much in this comment

[ColonelSheppard]

Novax rocks cybran navy i once saw a setons replay with (ICKEN? not sure has been a while) raping all cruisers and then killing the rest with air, the intel benefit is, well a nice gadget but nothing too good

[ColonelSheppard]

Novax rocks cybran navy i once saw a setons replay with (ICKEN? not sure has been a while) raping all cruisers and then killing the rest with air, the intel benefit is, well a nice gadget but nothing too good

[Gorton]

Novax rocks cybran navy i once saw a setons replay with (ICKEN? not sure has been a while) raping all cruisers and then killing the rest with air, the intel benefit is, well a nice gadget but nothing too good

Killing them cruisers to allow torpers to ruin the fleet is nice I admit, as well as the intel over that stealth the cybrans have.

Yet that's purely anti naval. That's what the Atlantis is (partly) for. (Also, against a single faction, too). In some situations it can excel. In most it can be replaced with a much cheaper and more effective alternative.

Edit: Whereas the other experimentals are pretty much always useful, especially Cybran ones.

[Mycen]

In some situations it can excel. In most it can be replaced with a much cheaper and more effective alternative.

Edit: Whereas the other experimentals are pretty much always useful, especially Cybran ones.

I don't think that a unit not being a useful option in every game is a bad thing. Cybran experimentals are not all always useful either - Monkeylords and Megaliths are not useful against a heavily defended base, for example.

For the intel purposes you'd want it to be there for a long time for it to be useful; and obviously spending that much mass will put you behind. If it doesn't, then your literally had 28k mass more; why don't you just build another fatboy instead and roll over them?

You're exactly right, it's useful in situations where you want long-term intel, i.e. the late game on a large map. On a map like Betrayal Ocean, or in a situation where you're trying to crack a base using T3 artillery, a Novax will be far more useful for offense than a Fatboy.

In addition to the discussed utility versus navies, the cool thing about the Novax is the way it synergizes with T3/4 artillery, strat bombers, and, to a lesser degree, nukes. Having a Novax in place can prevent reconstruction after an attack as well as provide permanent intel for your followup attacks. It's also nice how it distracts your opponents - if they see a Novax, they have to go and build shields around everything that they don't want to lose, and it makes it harder for them to venture out of their base to reclaim, since they can't just send engineers. Also, you claim it is too expensive for what it does now, but think about how overpowered it would be if it was cheaper. Once you get several Novaxes focusing their fire they do a LOT of damage, so it would be a bad idea to make it easy to get a large number of them.

One thing to consider: You say that the other experimentals are pretty much always useful, are you including the Mavor in this? Because you can get something like eight Novaxes for one Mavor, and not only will they deliver more overall DPS because they are more accurate and have built-in intel, they also will start delivering damage as each one is built rather than having to wait for the whole Mavor to finish. So if you think a Mavor is useful, why do you not consider eight Novax to be useful?



I think an appropriate increase in its utility would be to make the Novax able to target aircraft, (especially if aircraft HP was returned to vanilla levels as has been discussed - that might push it into OP territory ) but the fact that it is not directly as useful as other experimentals is hardly justification for some dramatic change. I think it's fine how it is.

[SC-Account]

In some situations it can excel. In most it can be replaced with a much cheaper and more effective alternative.

Edit: Whereas the other experimentals are pretty much always useful, especially Cybran ones.

I don't think that a unit not being a useful option in every game is a bad thing. Cybran experimentals are not all always useful either - Monkeylords and Megaliths are not useful against a heavily defended base, for example.

For the intel purposes you'd want it to be there for a long time for it to be useful; and obviously spending that much mass will put you behind. If it doesn't, then your literally had 28k mass more; why don't you just build another fatboy instead and roll over them?

You're exactly right, it's useful in situations where you want long-term intel, i.e. the late game on a large map. On a map like Betrayal Ocean, or in a situation where you're trying to crack a base using T3 artillery, a Novax will be far more useful for offense than a Fatboy.

In addition to the discussed utility versus navies, the cool thing about the Novax is the way it synergizes with T3/4 artillery, strat bombers, and, to a lesser degree, nukes. Having a Novax in place can prevent reconstruction after an attack as well as provide permanent intel for your followup attacks. It's also nice how it distracts your opponents - if they see a Novax, they have to go and build shields around everything that they don't want to lose, and it makes it harder for them to venture out of their base to reclaim, since they can't just send engineers. Also, you claim it is too expensive for what it does now, but think about how overpowered it would be if it was cheaper. Once you get several Novaxes focusing their fire they do a LOT of damage, so it would be a bad idea to make it easy to get a large number of them.

One thing to consider: You say that the other experimentals are pretty much always useful, are you including the Mavor in this? Because you can get something like eight Novaxes for one Mavor, and not only will they deliver more overall DPS because they are more accurate and have built-in intel, they also will start delivering damage as each one is built rather than having to wait for the whole Mavor to finish. So if you think a Mavor is useful, why do you not consider eight Novax to be useful?



I think an appropriate increase in its utility would be to make the Novax able to target aircraft, (especially if aircraft HP was returned to vanilla levels as has been discussed - that might push it into OP territory ) but the fact that it is not directly as useful as other experimentals is hardly justification for some dramatic change. I think it's fine how it is.

Yeah I kinda agree to this. If you want to change Novax the only thing I could think of would be more intel i.e some better radar on it/more vision/sonar or even omni. This would also fit better with the common role of a satellite.

Also, asides having slightly better DPS/mass than a Mavor it also allows you to spread out the risk. It is easier to snipe one Mavor than 8 Novax (not to mention the far higher combined HP).

[Gorton]

On the late game on a large map the novax is good for intel, sure. It helps prevent reconstruction? Sure. It makes people respond to it? Sure.
Spend that 28k mass on two launchers and your opponent is dead. Extra fatty which they can't counter... dead.
Not always, of course.. but you get the point.
I did say "In some situations it can excel. In most it can be replaced with a much cheaper and more effective alternative." and I stand by that. In most cases there is simply no reason to build one.
Monkeylords/Mega/Fatboy/Ythotha/Colo are *almost* always useful. Remember, you don't have to be attacking; that experimental is so that an enemy one can't just break your line.
You can't use particular maps/games to determine if something is balanced. In other threads, we see that some players on setons want certain things nerfed/buffed... and their concerns are good, BUT, only on setons. Others rightly pointed out that we can't use a specific map or game to determine game balance.

When you say it works well with other units, consider this:
Several (say 5) t3 bombers attacking shielded base, novax is there hitting base already....takes out shields, power etc
...or 19 t3 bombers and death to acu. Victory.

It just isn't worth it.
I make no claims on how to fix the problem. I'll say that right now. But it isn't currently good enough.

[Gorton]

One thing to consider: You say that the other experimentals are pretty much always useful,

I don't include any of the "game enders" unless specific reasons as to why in that particular game.
I find that for something like a paragon or a mavor etc you could as you say spam other experimentals and win that way.
My general view is if you can build something that costly without losing while putting yourself hundreds of thousands of mass behind.... you probably could have won anyway.