T2 "tanks" needs rebalance

[Lognosh]

I just stated my oppinion, also i told where i come from in this game so you have full picture. English is not my first language and again always feel free to dismiss it.

Here are all t2 tanks rounded up to 10 Ilshavoh, by the production Output.

I also added those two:
edps ( range & speed & projectile punishment * dps)
(Range)/40 * Speed/4 * (0.9 # if projectile over a second)
zedps (after zep's changes)
(I just shoved them together with no real thought. Don't concentrate to much on them, they are just showing slightly in a direction)

Spoiler: show

Build time 880
for 18

Pillar Mass cost 3564
range 23
speed 2.7
vision 20
HP 27 k
dps 969.3
edps 376.2
zedps 418

Rhino Mass cost 3564
range 23
speed 2.7
vision 20
HP 20.7 k
dps 1152
edps 447
zedps 530


Yenzyne Mass cost 3960 for hover (360 more than Obsidian)
range 18 (t1)
speed 3.7
vision 15
HP 23.4k
dps 787.5
edps 294

Blaze Mass cost 3960 for hover (360 more than Obsidian)
range 23
speed 3.7
vision 15
HP 18.9k
dps 900
edps 478

Build time 1320
for 12
Riptide Mass cost 4356 for hover ( 396 more than Blaze and Yenzyne, 756 more than Obsidian)
range 18 (t1)
speed 3.7
vision 15
HP 20.4k
dps 1080
edps 449


Wagner Mass cost 3564 (equal to Rhino and Pillar)
range 22
speed 3.7
vision 15
HP 17.4k
dps 1200
edps 549.5


Build time 1600
for 10
Ilshavoh Mass cost 3600
range 26
speed 2.5
vision 20
Hp 25 k
dps 1166
edps 473.6
zedps 530


Obsidian Mass cost 3600
range 20
speed 2.6
vision 20
Hp 27.5 k
dps 1200
edps 351
zedps 391.5

I don't mean to attack you personally. Your math is weird and the conclusion you draw doesn't derive from it or at least i don't understand how. Cause the changes you propose won't even affect it.

Anyhow you have a point. There is some mismatch, but i don't think with wagners or Sera bots.


All floating Tanks are too expensive. Building Floating t2 tanks punishes your economy. Still those are Naval Units. You need experts on those navy fights. The Riptide looks like it was punished for something, like a special reason. I always thought this is already a weird balancing for some special setons situations or maybe Cybran has a good lobby.
They can't deliver what you pay for that makes them useless. The stats are more than awful, except the riptide.


Hp wise the weakest tank in t2 is the wagner. Its a light tank. Still it is awesome cause its fast!
By stats Rhinos are better than Wagners, they are in fact more heavy.
Its amazingly complicated and its really hard to tell. The normal t2 units differ not that much and there is so much to take into account.
Hope that helps you somehow.

[ColonelSheppard]

All floating Tanks are too expensive. Building Floating t2 tanks punishes your economy. Still those are Naval Units. You need experts on those navy fights. The Riptide looks like it was punished for something, like a special reason. I always thought this is already a weird balancing for some special setons situations or maybe Cybran has a good lobby.
They can't deliver what you pay for that makes them useless. The stats are more than awful, except the riptide.

Hp wise the weakest tank in t2 is the wagner. Its a light tank. Still it is awesome cause its fast!
By stats Rhinos are better than Wagners, they are in fact more heavy.
Its amazingly complicated and its really hard to tell. The normal t2 units differ not that much and there is so much to take into account.
Hope that helps you somehow.

Your are talking bullshit. Sry, no offence, just fact
I dont have something againt newbies but just dont think that you are competent enough for this discussion

Wagners are better than rhinos in most cases riptides are awesome at dealing with t1 or even t2 navy or auroras on water
the blaze is the only t2 land unit for aeon to deal with t1 for t2 you have the obsidian that owns ever other t2 unit
i nearly never play sera so i can really say something about their floating tanks but i think they are also good in dealing with t1 navy and protecting your floating arty or flak

also the balance patch has already started maybe you want to write in the thread about the speed of t2 units if you think something has to be fixed ....

[Lognosh]

Your are talking bullshit. Sry, no offence, just fact
I dont have something againt newbies but just dont think that you are competent enough for this discussion


the blaze is the only t2 land unit for aeon to deal with t1 for t2 you have the obsidian that owns ever other t2 unit

No offense taken.
Explain that further?
Cause that is kinda BS to me

Just over the thumb against Sera, Cybran and Uef.
To kill a Blaze you need 4 t1 tank units. The blaze will kill 3 in an equal situation and then die.
This leaves you with a mass imbalance of 60ish and no BT gain.
If you take the Obsidian even with overkill it takes on easily 9 t1 land units. Leaving you with a dead Obsidian and 8 dead t1 tanks, a mass surplus of 50ish and a BT gain of easily 500-1000. To get back on foot you need Obsidians. A very quick transition to t3, shields or commander upgrades are also a possibility.

The Blaze needs to be used very effectively, using a ton of concentration and kill 2 more units per Blaze then they would when you just throw them in. Which isnt likely to happen when you are overrun anyway or outspammed.
The Obsidian is from start very likely to give you what you pay for.

As a noob i would use the Obsidian for that. That choice is more logical, making the Blaze not the only Option.

All floating t2 units suck in a land war. They are a mismatched investment from the start.
That is a fact. If there is water they are great. There must be a balancing reason already in place, i don't understand it but there are still enough tools. The Wagner produces the lowest amount of HP over time of all t2 tanks. That is a fact.
It is still one of the best tanks in the game and worth its money nearly every time, i never doubted that. If you think that is bullshit recalculate it. (hp/bt)

The Proposed changes of Ze_pilot sound great.
I like the game balance and i think people here are doing a great job on it. I don't think its necessary to equal all the t2 tanks out even further to match them to the floating ones. That is idiotic.

I don't know all reason why everything is a certain way, but I'm curious to know and find out.
All just my opinion, nothing in stone or something or final wisedom, no trolling....
If you don't like it ignore it or dismiss it or whatever...

[Ze_PilOt]

Sometimes you need to go in the wrong direction to be sure it was not the good one.

[Sunny]

Build time with current rates of engie assist is only important for some structures, nukes/anti nukes and T3 air (because it's too dominant late game this situation is broken by itself).

T2 land is not the case, considering you have at least one more landfac and know, you are going T2. And you do, because you won't be able to produce engies to cap mexes, build powert etc and bring your comm forward otherwise.

[Lognosh]

Sometimes you need to go in the wrong direction to be sure it was not the good one.

love it!

Build time with current rates of engie assist is only important for some structures, nukes/anti nukes and T3 air (because it's too dominant late game this situation is broken by itself).

T2 land is not the case, considering you have at least one more landfac and know, you are going T2. And you do, because you won't be able to produce engies to cap mexes, build powert etc and bring your comm forward otherwise.

You start to confuse me.

I think BT is always a good way to put things in perspective. Sure it all comes down to mass, but there is a nice alignment over BT and it makes the Mass alinement's intuitively visible.
Your Hdm for the Rhino and the Wagner differ alot, favoring the Wagner.
In my alignment over the BT they have the same Mass values. Seem like whatever I do, I get either 12 Wagners or 18 Rhino in the same model over an arbitrary period of time. If the economy stalls or not.
So what happens if we use HDM on the multiplied values? Once 12 once 18.
Wagner 5.858 k
Rhino 6.69 k

Your HDM is loving Rhinos now and it should.
(sorry i don't understand your HDM i forgot to take the minus effective mass into account and i don't know how it relates to what).

I think BT is important.
Its a fixed value aligned to mass and the basis of unit output. A fixed value can't be changed by engineers, you have to make account for it.
So if we would now adjust Obsidians to Blazes in a maximum output economy, you will have to compare 10 Obsidians to 16.3 Blazes and so on.

I think that is very logical, but again i never claimed to be an expert or anything. I told you I'm a noob who really enjoys the game and just try's to make sense of it...

Edit:
I totally miscalculated that, that was way to early in the morning. I have still no idea what you calculate there.
I declare my defeat and shut up.
If you take the numbers of Units only once and multiply it by HP*DPS, yeah the Wagner appears to be stronger.
What I made is just ((hp)*N*(dps)*N/massprice*N)) N being unequal but (N*massprice) being equal to fit the flow economy.
I bet that is totally wrong, i don't know. I have lots of work this week, so yeah take it as a win or what not...

[FunkOff]

If T2 tanks seem weak, it's not because their stats are low (hp, DPS, etc) but because they take too long to build, and the things that build them take too long to build.

What builds T1 tanks? T1 factories. T1 factories provide 20 build power for 300 build time, or .33 build power per build time.

What builds T2 tanks? Partly, it's T2 factories for 0.0125 build power per build time, and mostly it's T1 engineers with 0.019 build power per build time.

People spam T1 tanks because its MUCH faster to make T1 factories than it is to make T1 engineers, and T1 units are only marginally weaker.

[Sunny]

If T2 tanks seem weak, it's not because their stats are low (hp, DPS, etc) but because they take too long to build, and the things that build them take too long to build.

What builds T1 tanks? T1 factories. T1 factories provide 20 build power for 300 build time, or .33 build power per build time.

What builds T2 tanks? Partly, it's T2 factories for 0.0125 build power per build time, and mostly it's T1 engineers with 0.019 build power per build time.

People spam T1 tanks because its MUCH faster to make T1 factories than it is to make T1 engineers, and T1 units are only marginally weaker.

Yes, but I would say in other words. You need units (probably strong only versus alike units) for map control and also you need to much T2 units to use them in engagements with enemy comm (OC). That's why.

But this thread is not about t1 vs t2, I would not start such, it's about rebalancing t2 specifically tanks vs t2 tanks among different factions. I just did the math the tanks are incomparable for cost. Also above I wrote, that, say 30% difference is totally ok for me, ofc for a gameplay reason. But not like 100%.

Also Crazed kindly agreed to do some sandboxing (also showing, that Wagners are good vs t1), featuring some t2 tanks encounters and some t2 vs t1, roughly for 2000 mass.

Test, as well, shows that "best case scenario" math is to be done too, to get better understanding and not to make the models and characterictics too complex.

[pip]

If T2 tanks seem weak, it's not because their stats are low (hp, DPS, etc) but because they take too long to build, and the things that build them take too long to build.

What builds T1 tanks? T1 factories. T1 factories provide 20 build power for 300 build time, or .33 build power per build time.

What builds T2 tanks? Partly, it's T2 factories for 0.0125 build power per build time, and mostly it's T1 engineers with 0.019 build power per build time.

People spam T1 tanks because its MUCH faster to make T1 factories than it is to make T1 engineers, and T1 units are only marginally weaker.

You are right, and that is the root of the problem. The engy redesign mod completely fixes this, allowing large armies of t2 units because you can afford to have almost as many t2 facs as you can have t1 facs. I adivse you, to watch replay with Zock against other guys playing with this mod. You will probably like what you see.

@Sunny: you can't compare t2 units individually because a mixed army is the way to go. With Cybran, if you oppose Wagners, or rhino, cost for cost to sera t2 bots or Obsidians, they will get owned. However, if you add a few medusas along with your t2 units, you will have a more even fight. If you make Hoplites + decievers, Ilshavoh and Obsidians will get powned. But if the Sera or Aeon player uses a few t1 bombers, they'll pown the Hoplites. Or if the Aeon player builds Blazes + shields + a few t1 bombers instead of Obsidians. It's all about knowing how to mix your armies.

[Sunny]

@Sunny: you can't compare t2 units individually because a mixed army is the way to go. With Cybran, if you oppose Wagners, or rhino, cost for cost to sera t2 bots or Obsidians, they will get owned.

Why I can't? Something is better, than nothing. Clear understanding of simple things is much more, than fuzzy understanding of complex. I'm very well aware of all sorts of units' combinations. I suggest also to watch the attached replays.

The point: tanks differ much. If tanks differ 30%, it's okay to write about medusas, long-range bots and stuff. They differ like 100%.

However, if you add a few medusas along with your t2 units, you will have a more even fight. If you make Hoplites + decievers, Ilshavoh and Obsidians will get powned. But if the Sera or Aeon player uses a few t1 bombers, they'll pown the Hoplites. Or if the Aeon player builds Blazes + shields + a few t1 bombers instead of Obsidians. It's all about knowing how to mix your armies.

Also, I'm always up for sandboxing and I'll happily test all this imaginary situations, without t1 bombers, of course. For beginning, I seriously suggest anyone reading this to count or test Blazes + Shield vs Obsidians unmicroed or focus firing mass for mass, don't forget to include the mass cost of power gens.