LOUD AI & Game Speed Improvement Project

[Mofunkles]

It was a bit different than I expected. Both AIs seemed to be very defensive..

I would say the overall defensive play is something I've noticed myself. That being that the AI at some points has so many units clustered in it's base / at defensive points that if it just selected everything and attack-move ordered my base I'd probably lose then and there. Though I'm not sure the of the reasoning behind why it clusters units in those positions or the process that determines how it makes attacks - it may be clustering units there for some important reason.

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As a note to the devs. I've been playing with the AIx more and I have just a small request (I hope it's small anyway) and that is could you add an option like Sorian had for AI not to have increased vision radius. Just gets a bit annoying when I'm getting whacked constantly at max range by units that shouldn't really be able to see mine.

[Sprouto]

Thanks very much for your observations - @MandeR and @Mofunkles

One of the major differences between LOUD and Sorian is in intelligence gathering and how it's used in the decision process. In addition to spot analysis of threat, LOUD will base decisions on how the overall threat of it's enemy (or what it knows about it's enemy) changes over time versus it's own threat. This permits LOUD to move between an defensive and offensive stance dynamically, and in some cases, on a local basis. Instead of looking to crush an opponent with a massive single attack, LOUD will seek to 'chip away' your economic underpinning, and then, when his advantage is clear (say 3 to 1 or more), he will start considering the massive attack. If his own condition is poor, you'll see him defending his own eco assets more actively. It's entirely possible to alter his behaviour by simply adjusting the points at where those transitions take place, which is something for the future.

One feature you might find handy is to play with an AI ally. Utilizing a variation on the code which Sorian created, to allow you some limited communication with an AI ally, in LOUD, you can request your AI partner to give you status updates, in which he will regularly report his strength 'ratio' versus the enemy to you, amongst other data. This will give you a feel for how LOUD 'sees' the battlefield.

As for nukes, LOUD is a bit more refined. If he's aware of a targets nuke defenses, he won't just fire at them anyway. He'll either try to construct additional launchers, or ripple-fire multiple launchers to overcome the defense. Of course, on the defense, if LOUD sees an enemy launcher, he'll construct anti-nukes to stay ahead of just that situation. Often, when two LOUD AI are fighting against each other, you may see a nuke standoff like you described. At the moment, LOUD is not aware that the Yolona Oss can outbuild the standard nuke defenses which would indeed have worked in the situation you described.

Re: The vision radius. There was a setup option that allowed you to turn off the AIx ACU vision cheat, but we took it out. Other than the rather large vision radius which the AIx CDR gets, the LOUD AIx gets a minor vision bonus to all units equal to half of his cheat bonus -- so a 10% cheat gives his units a 5% vision enhancement. Another feature of LOUD is a change to veterancy bonuses, which awards very minor vision increases. I think we can consider putting the option back to allow the removal of the ACU's vision bonus.

Again, thanks very much for the detailed review of your current experiences. If you'd ever like to talk directly with me, or any of the folks involved with LOUD, just drop me a PM. We have a Teamspeak server of our own, and I'm available most every day, all day.

[MandeR]

Thanks Sprouto -- I love the level of insight you routinely give us on your AI!

Just a thought for the future -- would it be possible to have a few 'flavors' of the AI, similar to the stock AI (adaptive, turtle, etc)? Or an 'aggressiveness' continuum for the AI the player can set? For example, one end of the scale would result in conservative/turtle behavior, and on the other end the AI would be more prone to taking bullish risks (such as using more of the defensive units for offense at one time in an attempt for a large swath of territory control or a direct attack on the player's main base).

On the back end, I assume this would mean the transition point from 'chipping away' to 'major assault' would occur earlier, before there was a clear favorable ratio.

Unrelated question -- does removing the modded units (Total Mayhem, Blackops, etc) hamper the AI, or does it play just as well without them?

[Sprouto]

While LOUD will use the additional units, it's play is unaffected if they are turned off. If you do notice any odd behavior as a result, let me know, send me a replay, and we'll get to the bottom of it.

As for overall aggression, I was thinking of tying the aggression to the personality (ie. - the name of the AI), so that it would be entirely dynamic from game to game. But, for now, it's just a thought.

[Tanksy]

For the music removed... ...I don't know.

I'm responsible for that, and I'm sorry about that. The slider and functions that play the music will be put back in, and I'll think of a way to determine if the music files are actually present or not before the game tries loading them so that the function doesn't throw errors for people who deleted the files. I wasn't aware there was anyone who actually used the Music. I removed it as a trial to see what kind of extra juice could be squeezed out of not having a 100 meg file preloaded in memory that few of our regular players were actually listening to. As for the "dynamically changing music" sorta thing - It basically checked for how many units the player owned were in combat and changed to the Battle playlist and then back to the Peaceful playlist when combat ended. I'm not sure what you're talking about with special music when reclaiming -- unless this was a SupCom 1 thing.

As for the music mod, if it's just adding new tracks to both the Peaceful and Battle sound banks within the files, then I'd say it's going to be fine for anyone to use but we probably won't include it with the mod download.

[paxton676]

For the music removed... ...I don't know.

I'm responsible for that, and I'm sorry about that. The slider and functions that play the music will be put back in, and I'll think of a way to determine if the music files are actually present or not before the game tries loading them so that the function doesn't throw errors for people who deleted the files. I wasn't aware there was anyone who actually used the Music. I removed it as a trial to see what kind of extra juice could be squeezed out of not having a 100 meg file preloaded in memory that few of our regular players were actually listening to. As for the "dynamically changing music" sorta thing - It basically checked for how many units the player owned were in combat and changed to the Battle playlist and then back to the Peaceful playlist when combat ended. I'm not sure what you're talking about with special music when reclaiming -- unless this was a SupCom 1 thing.

As for the music mod, if it's just adding new tracks to both the Peaceful and Battle sound banks within the files, then I'd say it's going to be fine for anyone to use but we probably won't include it with the mod download.

When I said music changed on reclaim, it switched to battle music instead of peaceful. So exactly as you thought.

For the music mod I think it is just extra tracks to battle and peaceful but I am not sure how to get it to work with your mod. Actually, none of the mods I have that work with FAF and FA work with your mod. It seems you guys have change the format or something, they don't even show up in mod manager when I place them in normal locations(.scd in gamedata or as folder in mod folder) Any chance you will help me get the music mod working? make the necessary changes to the script to support loud? I don't make mods just enjoy the work of others so my understanding is very limited.

scmusic mod http://www.mediafire.com/?2tk9i5oble6h9xx

As for others not using the music, I think maybe because I am casual gamer. I think most if not everyone but me playing this mod is more expert or professional level. When I got on teamspeak and did a game with people, it was very obvious.

Even if the mod wasn't made for a gamer like me, I like it. I like playing solo with ai.

In real world and internet I am anti social person, a recluse. I prefer single player experience. I own a home in the mountains and live alone so I am a hermit living in the mountains. lol

[Sprouto]

Thanks Paxton - downloading music mod now.

As for any other mods you use, can you link me some that aren't working and I'll be able to figure out what's keeping them from working -- and hopefully solve that.

LOUD doesn't have any restrictions on which mods you can use, BUT, having said that, I do know that the updater will move any mods, or maps, that aren't part of the release into a separate directory as part of it's function.

As for being anti-social, I don't think so. A true anti-social type wouldn't have made any kind of post here, good or otherwise, and you've been quite helpful. Please, continue to let us know about your battles with LOUD, because, honestly, I'm often too close to the forest to see the trees, and the way I perceive LOUD is quite different from everyone else's perspective.

[paxton676]

Thanks Paxton - downloading music mod now.

As for any other mods you use, can you link me some that aren't working and I'll be able to figure out what's keeping them from working -- and hopefully solve that.

LOUD doesn't have any restrictions on which mods you can use, BUT, having said that, I do know that the updater will move any mods, or maps, that aren't part of the release into a separate directory as part of it's function.

As for being anti-social, I don't think so. A true anti-social type wouldn't have made any kind of post here, good or otherwise, and you've been quite helpful. Please, continue to let us know about your battles with LOUD, because, honestly, I'm often too close to the forest to see the trees, and the way I perceive LOUD is quite different from everyone else's perspective.

Well, the others are sim mods, not just UI but here are a few of them. Some of these and others were originally made for sorian ai support, not sure if you want to make them loud ai compatible? I don't want to make you work too hard.

The nuke mod 1.46 is really cool because the damage of nukes is increased to the edge of the special effects. Seems like this one could be part of loud mod but would change gameplay since more units will be destroyed.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/realistic-nuk ... ersion-146

These experimental shields are sorian ai compatible meaning that ai will build them. Might be too much work to get loud ai working? I like these shields because really strong to defend artillery so can play very defensive turtle style and still survive. In addition, I noticed a defensive turtle style doesn't work well against loud ai so maybe using a mod like this will allow for more play styles? Lastly, you already have an experimental shield as part of a mod in loud 4dc? it is a square shield but is mostly useless in that provides little more defense than the T3 shield. I prefer this mk1 mod.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/experimental- ... or-mk-i-12

This makes the tactical missile launchers auto. This mod is very powerful, you can end a game really fast. However, seems fair since the ai is already auto because not having to manually target units like human player.

/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13068


Lastly, the music mod is nice because it is just UI and adds the vanilla supcom music tracks to the FA ones so just more music in game. Moreover, I really wasn't planning on asking for more mod support than that. However, I really do like that nuke mod 1.46.

[Sprouto]

Fear not, I believe everything is worth at least a look. I'm not so vain as to think that LOUD is as good as it gets -- there is ALWAYS room for growth and improvement and new approaches and ideas are what keep FA so interesting after all these years.

If you've played much LOUD, you'll surely have noticed quite a few changes to the way certain things work. Nukes (and anti-nukes) have been pushed deeper into the game, being only constructed by Sub-Commanders, and there is NO adjacency bonuses for either one. Furthermore, the build power of the structures has been pushed way up to marginalize the effect that assisting has on them. You can still do it, but the impact is massively diminished. Those changes, at least as far as LOUD is concerned, put nukes in a reasonable perspective.

As with nukes, we've studied the relationship between shields and artillery and the long game for a long time. We've gone thru many iterations, but an important aspect of LOUD was agreeing about the general backstory of how shields work, how effective they are in certain applications, factional differences, and just how far you can reasonably extend the shield metaphor. One feature that's not immediately obvious is that LOUD offers enhanced shield performance thru an adjacency bonus with energy storage units -- or as part of LOUDs integrated storage mod (which incorporates mass and energy storage into resource buildings as an upgrade). While LOUD has the Experimental Square Shield, we've reworked it many times to fit into a realm that keeps it relative to it's smaller brothers, and currently we're toying with the idea of turning it into a pure anti-artillery shield only. LOUD will build them, but as an addition to his robust normal shield matrix. So give the included one's a try and see what you think.

We've recently completed a large review of tactical missiles, TMD, torpedoes and torpedo defenses. It's clear that the static T2 TML is at a disadvantage to almost any other tactical missile firing unit (several ships, mobile launchers, etc). Aside from it's one clear advantage in range, the T2 TML suffers from a low rate of fire and the cost of having to build it's missiles. At present, we're thinking the forced manual fire was just a band-aid, and should likely be removed, turning the T2 TML into a weapon platform just like any other -- outstanding range, but easily defeated by proper deployment of tactical missile defense (which, by the way, has been revised in LOUD). I'm also considering that it may also become 'homing' to further increase it's usefulness -- and make it worthy of it's cost.

[swaaye]

I would like a powerful shield generator as well. I have used that Experimental Shield Generator MK I but for some reason (don't recall why) I use "Advanced Shields V4" instead. Sorian AI does not build the shields in that mod though.

It sounds like LOUD has a lot of shield changes to explore though already. Adjacency bonus is exciting.

One mod I would like is an air crash damage disabler. Debris going through shields and killing the shield generators is pretty irritating...