Veterancy and phantom X

[Commlink]

i gave you a link to voice your concerns over fa vet on forums for balance problems, while mentioning and posting here does let duck know he has already mentioned that he will not be changing or scripting this part of the game. Would it not be better to post on the link i gave you an take it up with zep? at least then you can get an honest reply and something may actually be done about it. Just a thought

[Duck_42]

Harp, the fixes that Comm was referencing aren't in the current patch. They're planned for 3616, which hasn't been deployed yet.

[Harpagon]

i gave you a link to voice your concerns over fa vet on forums for balance problems, while mentioning and posting here does let duck know he has already mentioned that he will not be changing or scripting this part of the game. Would it not be better to post on the link i gave you an take it up with zep? at least then you can get an honest reply and something may actually be done about it. Just a thought

T4 are not overpowered in the regular game mod because there are many other efficient ways to win the game. That is why I posted here and not in the general faf topic.
Then I stop arguing even if 99% of phantom players I know think it would be better without any vet in phantom (and only in phantom!).

[Commlink]

Unless you code it yourself, i dont think this will happen. Changing vet drastically alters balance of the game and how it plays out, the reason why people like phantom is because it uses the FA units and balance system already in place without modifying them allowing new and old players to both join in with out experience. Changing the vet aspect separately from FA makes the game unbalanced and nerfs experimentals.
you can always select mods options

A) No Air
B) No Experimentals

.

[Harpagon]

Well I think we have very different points of view

Unless you code it yourself, I dont think this will happen.

I am not a good english speaker and I dont have any documentation about how code it. And except the few mods provided in faf, the other are not used or are veryyy famous.

Changing vet drastically alters balance of the game and how it plays out

Acutaly, this is the change of the vet system which altered the balance of phantom mod which was NOT concepted considering the t4 would have this advantage.

the reason why people like phantom is because it uses the FA units and balance system already in place without modifying them allowing new and old players to both join in with out experience.

I dont think having t4 without(or less) vet will panic them ^^ And you can be prety sure that a beginer who is rushed by a czar in phantom will be disgusted and not play the mod again.

Changing the vet aspect separately from FA makes the game unbalanced and nerfs experimentals.

The contrary : In phantom games you can go straight to t4 which is not the case in the other games. Phantom games were more balanced with the previous veterancy, that was something else that a t4 rush contest and uef was a decent faction to play. Besides, nerf the t4 doesnt make them a useless unit, it just makes them stopable by inno (who loose a little bit too often since the vet update).

Well, your choice if you dont include something to nerf the vet, I wont fight to get it but I think I have valid arguments.

[Harpagon]

Some replays for Duck ( and I am not even sure I picked the worst !). Btw, dont pay attention to dialogues if you watch them

215336-Harpagon.fafreplay

Nice exemple that the czar is OP : even if the phantom woul have killed it, he would have lost his smd after the crash.

(114.66 KiB) Downloaded 196 times

213873-Harpagon.fafreplay

Very slow yotha rush from me which worked against walls of pds though.

(182.25 KiB) Downloaded 178 times

212766-Harpagon.fafreplay

Ripper rush from dorca and my yothas having more ealth after killing two phantoms than before.

(186.12 KiB) Downloaded 189 times

I had an other intersting one with rippers killing whole armies of t3 sam and flack which were supposed to be their hard counter but 3 is the maximum attachments ^^

[Commlink]

For 3rd or 4th time duck does not deal with this kind of game aspect and said before he does not deal with stuff like that.

The vet should be more balanced in the new fa version, that is when its released?

1st replay
4vs 1 phantom.. i thought the problem was phantom getting czar fast ? not innocent making one...
Also few things wrong on this style of play, grey has not scouted, couple t3 spy planes would have gone along way, his ability to use shields sucked lol and you micro'd the czar to get vet, wheres the problem?

good scouting also fact phantom was found early and killed his ally made it easier for u to get fast czar otherwise if i wa sin that game i would have pinged it and redirected everything i had to getting asf and land aa-t3.

2nd replay
not gonna bother watching a yotha walking slowly to someones base .. thats fail on who evers playing tbh lol. Also a good player can micro a yotha effectively to gain vet especially with engs around.

3rd replay
watched up to ripper killing blue and some of the argument, where u instantly blame the new vet and diesalot points out all the flaws in your argument, but you wont listen. I agree with diesalot on this one he did the correct thing almost killed it couple asf from pink or a few more shield even with vet that soul ripper would have been down. Infact if he had better shield coverage it would not even have had vet.

ok right so Your original argument was the pahntom could rush air exp to fast and nothing you could do, it would also vet up really fast and you would still lose?
first replay its an innocent getting czar in a 4 vs 1 phantom .. no point in showing this.
second yotha, wait was it not air? another failed replay
third, finally some proof wait no blue was just cybran crappy shields and no help from allies gg. if blues comm had been in water ripper may have gotten vet but the team efforts of innocents would have crashed it. Rippers are good for early hits on 1 person after that everyone is made aware example of this is teal building aa and almost killing the ripper.

The 4th replay might have yielded more interesting results, but if its another replay of poor shielding or mass asf covering the ripper in later game its a fail.

Also im very weary of cyrban players who go form t2 to t3 hives early and on t2 power.

[Duck_42]

I told Harp to post them, and I'd take a look at them.

Edit: By the way Harp, I'm not even going to consider modding any of the units until after the 3616 patch is released. The veterancy will be adjusted considerably in that update, so I belive it may address most of your concerns.

[Harpagon]

For 3rd or 4th time duck does not deal with this kind of game aspect and said before he does not deal with stuff like that.

The vet should be more balanced in the new fa version, that is when its released?

1st replay
4vs 1 phantom.. i thought the problem was phantom getting czar fast ? not innocent making one...
Also few things wrong on this style of play, grey has not scouted, couple t3 spy planes would have gone along way, his ability to use shields sucked lol and you micro'd the czar to get vet, wheres the problem?

good scouting also fact phantom was found early and killed his ally made it easier for u to get fast czar otherwise if i wa sin that game i would have pinged it and redirected everything i had to getting asf and land aa-t3.

2nd replay
not gonna bother watching a yotha walking slowly to someones base .. thats fail on who evers playing tbh lol. Also a good player can micro a yotha effectively to gain vet especially with engs around.

3rd replay
watched up to ripper killing blue and some of the argument, where u instantly blame the new vet and diesalot points out all the flaws in your argument, but you wont listen. I agree with diesalot on this one he did the correct thing almost killed it couple asf from pink or a few more shield even with vet that soul ripper would have been down. Infact if he had better shield coverage it would not even have had vet.

ok right so Your original argument was the pahntom could rush air exp to fast and nothing you could do, it would also vet up really fast and you would still lose?
first replay its an innocent getting czar in a 4 vs 1 phantom .. no point in showing this.
second yotha, wait was it not air? another failed replay
third, finally some proof wait no blue was just cybran crappy shields and no help from allies gg. if blues comm had been in water ripper may have gotten vet but the team efforts of innocents would have crashed it. Rippers are good for early hits on 1 person after that everyone is made aware example of this is teal building aa and almost killing the ripper.

The 4th replay might have yielded more interesting results, but if its another replay of poor shielding or mass asf covering the ripper in later game its a fail.

Also im very weary of cyrban players who go form t2 to t3 hives early and on t2 power.

If you say no each time I say yes, this wont be very constructive..


FACT : Phantoms win almost all the time since the new vet when they are not completly noobs and have decent factions.
...But there is absolutely no problem .........

Then, I repeat myself because you dont seem to get it: the problem is that point defenses are not longer effective against t4 since the new vet version. (See 2nd replay..).
A usual exemple for land t4 : 1 inno and 1 phantom who have the same BO : the phantom will finsih his t4 4 or 5 minutes before the inno does. As only t4 are effective against other t4, the inno will be killed without problem by the phantom.
For czar rush (or ripper) : or innos have aldready some air facilites and the phantom just have to rush cg(or mls), or the innos dont and they wont get enough asf in one or 2 mins (time to build a czar for a good phantom). T3 sam is the best way to defend but then all innos have to build them and it is costly .. they become easy targets for the 2nd phantom. And czar is also good at def, the first phantom wont even have wasted his ressources.

Now .. why these replays ?

1) Because if an inno can kill so easely a phantom having a base full of asf, with a czar without hurrying , there is maybe a problem. Now imagine a phantom RUSHING a czar against an inno with less asf.. And as I said, if he killed the czar, he would die because he would have lost his smd. Even as a kamikaze unit, czar would be efficient.

2) To make you understand that point defenses which were almost the only way to stop a t4 rush from a phantom before the vet are now useless.

3) Play more with Dies and you will undestand.. he often get mad when he looses (especialy against me, long stroy..), and because of that he is kicked from a lot of games. He is an experienced phantom player, at least above average but he could not kill this cheap t4. And by the way I am still waiting his replays..


I post the 4th replay, try to see it without searching at every image why it is "a fail" because innos COULD or SHOULD have do so or so.. They made a decent attempt to def. And dont forget when people are playing, they dont see the whole map as you do in replay, this is easy to criticize their strategy once the game is over ("good but not enought !").

I told Harp to post them, and I'd take a look at them.

Edit: By the way Harp, I'm not even going to consider modding any of the units until after the 3616 patch is released. The veterancy will be adjusted considerably in that update, so I belive it may address most of your concerns.

Ok. But I think it will have some pervers effects. As the unit's ealth regenerates at each veterancy step, if you dont have a huge fire power, the unit becomes killable only once it has the 5 vet stars.
After the patch, it may even be worst because it could let time to the unit to loose more ealth between veterancy steps and then fully uses each regeneration of ealth and finally make the t4 last longer.( I dont know if you see what I mean .. I try to make it clear but I know my english really sucks :s). But I wait to see

[mead]

Does the current veterancy system suck? Yes. Does it give phantoms an advantage? Yes. Is it gamebreaking? No.

Aside from the fact that everyone knows its broken and that it will be fixed fairly soon (so why are we even talking about this?), the gameplay issues are far less serious than Harpagon claims. Players merely have to adjust somewhat - the best early game defense against Czars is no longer every innos sending in a handful of ASFs - that is horrendously counterproductive and people simply need to stop doing it. Instead, go mobile flak, and stationary T1 and T3 AA. It is possible to get enough AA up to defeat a czar in the time the czar needs to travel the distance between two islands on Roanoke. Even if the czar is pulled back and doesn't die, the situation is disadvantageous for the phantom. He has revealed himself, and wasted 45k mass with little to no return. Same goes for Rippers, who are somewhat more difficult to kill but a lot weaker against ASFs. Ahwassa can't defeat layered shields.
The issue with pd as early defense against rushed land t4 is even less serious. People mostly die because
1.) they are too stupid to move their ACU out of the way
2.) they build pd next to their t3 pgen like a noob (it seems to me 90% of UEF players do this with their t3 pd)
3.) they clump pd instead of spreading it out, which is particularly bad against Ythothas, who can take out entire clumps of t3 pd with a single shot because of their AoE (which incidentally also makes them get vet faster).