I am finished contributing to FAF.

[FtXCommando]

Why is the mindset in regards to the discrepancy between Slack and the rest of FAF focused on making Slack follow some FAF rules?

Frankly I see people say way worse things than anything Downlord said and I don’t really get what the big deal is about what he said. I also see people get punished for saying things nowhere near as offensive, so your mileage will vary.

What are you going to do? Ban Downlord from posting on Slack because he made you or some other mod mad? Or because some coder can’t work in a ToXiC EnVirOnMent?

I literally see no reason to “enforce FAF Rules” on Slack when 95% of the time everything is fine and people use the service to communicate with others about their work on FAF. It just seems like an attempt for mods to wedge themselves into an issue as an unwanted third party or utilize their power when they feel directly or indirectly insulted as some weird sort of powerplay on a community project.

[Downlord]

Plus, I don't see why of all what biass wrote the main thing we're discussing is whether or not Slack should be moderated.

[biass]

To clarify my position. I don't think having mods on slack enforcing faf rules removes either A: Communication and inconsistency and B: double standards. I wrote these in my post.

I think it was just the topic brought up because rackover was a character in my example.

I didn't go into what i think of moderation too much because if you mention too many specifics you run the high chance of being wiped from existence for trolling, i spoke about this also.

[Dunstklinge]

We finally got a fix to the undefeatable server issue that was preventing BHedit from being rated yesterday, the fix was changing “id” to “uid” in 2 or so lines of code. This is not acceptable. This has halted anyone’s continued desire to work on the project and had throttled contribution and left feelings of negligence, incompetency, and mistreatment.

Im not a contributor to FAF so i dont speak for anyone here, but i have been contributing as a developer in other communities before, and i find this statement rather unfair.
Like anyone else, developers use their own free time to contribute to a project for no other reason than to see something you love become better, and so you naturally tend to do things that you personally want to see changed in the project. Nobody expects the Normad-Crew to make new Seraphim Campaign Missions, so how come a developer is expected to work on an issue they care less about? Why is he suddenly "mistreating" others? Seems like you have a double standard of your own here.

As for the third point, I'm not even really involved in this community, but i still got the same feeling. I remember not too long ago (i think it was a council voting or something) where aeolus was filled with more or less ironic jokes about getting banned for just discussing the issue, and i still miss feathers beautiful attitude. It seems like these days peoples skins grow thinner by the minute, and culling anything you dislike becomes more and more accepted, but i personally think that a community where you fake a smile so you dont get banned is a lot more toxic than a community of shitposters.

But as i said, im not too involved in this community, so take all of that with a grain of salt.

[biass]

Im not a contributor to FAF so i dont speak for anyone here, but i have been contributing as a developer in other communities before, and i find this statement rather unfair.
Like anyone else, developers use their own free time to contribute to a project for no other reason than to see something you love become better, and so you naturally tend to do things that you personally want to see changed in the project. Nobody expects the Normad-Crew to make new Seraphim Campaign Missions, so how come a developer is expected to work on an issue they care less about? Why is he suddenly "mistreating" others? Seems like you have a double standard of your own here.

I don't expect people to do things they are not familiar with, but i am expecting people to actively check over things they implement and make sure small nagging bugs like this don't happen. I am expected to do this when there is a map related bug, or a bug in a mod, or a bug in code if ever i would do that. failing to check why the thing you added wasn't working for, remind you, TWO YEARS just to be found by peer review to be a letter change is negligent.

[Downlord]

Regarding BHedit (and other mods) not being ranked; I might have read about it at some point but among everything else I'm dealing with, this didn't make it on my radar and as AFAIK, nobody ever created an issue in the server repository (https://github.com/FAForever/server/issues) or even approached me directly.

I suggest that if someone wants something to be fixed, he makes sure it's on the radar of whoever can fix it.

[Geosearchef]

No, a moderator is an representative of the community put in place to ensure it's continued perseverance

So basically they are a representative of the community but should also have power over council members? We don't need moderators on slack to ensure it's perseverance. Actually it's the opposite, by doing that you drive people (contributors, especially developers) away.

Also I want to address the "contributor" issue. We may diverge on this point, but FAF has a lot of mods and maps. The game already is fun. It doesn't need new maps and mods at all cost. But I consider fixing infrastructure bugs, building GW and fixing connectivity (ICE) way more important than someone contributing creatively by creating FA art.

The one or two admins - before the moderators were just now given rights - were not elected

Admins don't have any power over the slack. If they abuse their power on the FAF server, it will be brought up on slack. Additionally they have to enter into some kind of legal agreement with sheeo.

So you think the promotion and Maps and Mods councillors should be able to moderate your discussion, or only the councillors you like?

I think the council should be able to.

Rackover didn't write these rules, she just posted the thread, these rules are the culmination of the moderation team's
effort. That includes the council.

This ruleset was decided, proofread, and voted among the moderation team.

That's not the problem, I know rackover didn't write them, but the moderation team is just one instance of the FAF community and you cannot apply these rules to the slack without considering all the others.

The structure of FAF is made so that each councilor and his team have power on an entire chunk of FAF.

Yes, exactly, moderators have the power to moderate. Giving them the ability to moderate the slack gives them the ability to have power over everyone else.

Given the size of slack, the number of users, and the "heated discussions" that have been happening in the past, it seems obvious this place should not be above the rules of FAF like it had been. We do need a team to moderate it, even though you may not like it.

What the heck do you want to moderate? It's not like you can just ban a contributor. If you ban e.g. a developer your hurting FAF in a major way and most people won't accept that. And most of the times the heated discussion involves downlord, what do you wanna do? Just ban a councillor? Nope, then you're essentially overstepping the council and take power over FAF.

You're essentially taking away the possibility for people to say their opinion if you (the mod team) don't like it. All contributors do this voluntarily and I think many of them won't like that.

I don't expect people to do things they are not familiar with

TWO YEARS just to be found by peer review

This is another issue of FAF. We simply don't have a python server developer. (nor a python client developer) There is noone familiar with the python server.
Stop complaining or fix it yourself. There is no one payed to work on it.
Additionally, there is a working java server ready for deployment that there are actually developers ready to work on and which supports more features like different protocols needed for GalacticWar. This has been brought up in a dev conf multiple times, but it failed to take a decision each time.

[Morax]

I mean, the quick sum is that a lot of devs are working 100% on what they want rather what is needed.

Sheeo would likely entertain making it so you have to cover some things that are "less interesting," but people are not exactly clawing at the door to get into helping here.

Haven't worked with a lot of the people directly in that letter you wrote, but in general it's been a fairly negative experience...

Good luck in your new endeavors, and thanks for all your help. I would not have been able to progress and still improve without your knowledge.

[Downlord]

I mean, the quick sum is that a lot of devs are working 100% on what they want rather what is needed.

Sorry but no. Look at https://feedback.userreport.com/7a3715d ... as/popular
And compare to what we've been working on:

• ICE adapter to solve connection issues
• Galactic War
• Matchmaking
• Replay server
• Downlord's FAF Client

Fixing that bug you mentioned didn't even make it into the list.

[biass]

You're essentially taking away the possibility for people to say their opinion if you (the mod team) don't like it. All contributors do this voluntarily and I think many of them won't like that.

The average user doesn't like it either, besides, you think all moderators do is just ban people? you would be right, but it is not what SHOULD be happening. They should be able to diffuse personal attacks and other crosses of the metaphorical line and set the topic back on track. Instead of listening to you nerds argue for hundreds of lines over semantics, or how you think one X is better than one Y because people who use X must have a bigger brain.

Also I want to address the "contributor" issue. We may diverge on this point, but FAF has a lot of mods and maps. The game already is fun. It doesn't need new maps and mods at all cost. But I consider fixing infrastructure bugs, building GW and fixing connectivity (ICE) way more important than someone contributing creatively by creating FA art.

Man up and tell me what i said is true and FAF as a culture thinks less of not code, or say it's false and lie to me, don't give me a cop out answer.

Also, enough about things that concern you. Not every point i made had to do with slack and developers, and i want to hear points on the other topics.

I would not have been able to progress and still improve without your knowledge.

Maybe you will become the next uber mapper now? still got a while to go before you top me and who knows, something might actually happen and i will return to reclaim my throne But hey, thanks man.