The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

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The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby Morax » 03 Dec 2018, 20:04

After reviewing some of the feedback on maps for the ladder pool, I quickly realized this poll is purely based on a user's simple opinion rather real, constructive feedback.

What do I mean by this? Well, many players say they don't like a map simply because of its size and complexity, e.g. Medicraze who apparently likes negative-ad campaigning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfd1HJZBzM

I think the ladder polls FTXCommando has created are good for finding out someone's core opinion, but as a mapper who really wants to improve the content for the community, simply hearing "I don't have time nor like 20x20 cause it's scary" does not help much. Reviewing matches in the replay vault, I see 5x5 as the only medium where matches are usually are most 20 mins. 10x10 and up can last an hour or more depending upon the skill-level match and etc. I don't have feedback on my maps time with specific data, but a number of example replays I saw of Norfair saw the matches average about 15-20 minutes. So what is the real problem if it's not time?

Frithen took a decent amount of thought and work, and like most things, it received good and bad feedback from players.

So, ladder team, and specifically FTXCommando, I would like to request that you do a little more and ask people who participate in polls to provide a "reason" in their voting so that the data has some real weight.
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby Turinturambar » 03 Dec 2018, 20:56

main idea of this poll is not to gain constructive feedback, but to factor in the playerbases preferences more. it will change the likelyhood a map is picked for ladder (slightly), to make the pool more appealing to the "average player".
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby UnorthodoxBox » 03 Dec 2018, 22:11

I feel that allowing players to state why they like or dislike a map will give more weight to what they have to say, though. For example, if a player says they do not like all 20x20 maps because they are "too big" or "take too long", then that really shouldn't mean much (in my opinion) because it isn't really a review of the map, its a review of the numbers next to the map name. However, if they say they do not like Emerald Crater because they think expansions are too far apart or they do not like having huge open areas of nothingness, I believe that should give more credence to their choice of disliking a map. It works the other way if people vote to like all 5x5 maps because they are small, instead of actually liking aspects of the map.
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby Morax » 03 Dec 2018, 22:24

It's amazing how when I want something changed people ask me to make an extremely well-versed report, yet for when I get something like this where it affects my hours and hours of work, some super-simplistic poll is created.

You just wrote "this isn't meant to gain constructive feedback" which tells me you guys didn't put much thought into it.

Very disappointing and Tokyto-like...
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby biass » 04 Dec 2018, 07:00

You'll excuse me for timezone but I believe that my response has already been said. This poll isn't for feedback for mappers but for the ladder team to gauge if our opinions/ratings on maps are similar to that of the playerbase, if for example we think X map is really good but in the polls people think it sucks, then we have to adjust. Else, that map will appear more commonly because of it's score, and that combined with how much it is disliked will drive people away from ladder, and in my opinion getting as many people playing as possible despite the lack of incentive is really the number one goal here.

If you want actual feedback you'll make or ask for it in a thread, which you have done already. or my epic new feedback channels ;) https://discord.gg/Z5pVWSx

Extra comments:
Medicraze wrote:I don't have time to play a 20km

Medicraze wrote:Okay onto the next game!


This video didn't need to exist.

Image

You should, because someone with a "high IQ" will know it takes about a solid tenth of a second to form a first impression, and so that impression isn't going to stem from gameplay flow or expansion pacing.

Also, im not the mapping councillor, im an unpaid foreign worker who cucks true blooded american workers with brutal cost/efficiency statistics. Make sure you remember who did the things when the time to judge who did the things arises, though.
Bask in awe of what once was: http://bit.ly/2qubD3l

Petricpwnz wrote:biass on his campaign to cleanse and remake every single map of FAF because he is an untolerating reincarnation of mapping hitler
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby FtXCommando » 04 Dec 2018, 08:12

Poll where people need to provide well written and serious feedback based on an understanding of game logic/mechanics seems like the job of ladder team tbh.

Don’t get why:

informed opinion = ladder team
popular opinion = poll

is such a hard concept. Why would I raise the barrier of entry on the poll? It’s totally redundant.

As I’ve said elsewhere, ladder is a combination of a serious environment as well as a place to have fun. The ladder team might view Festea as a map where great potential for naval play on a 10x10 could happen and that itself is an interesting concept, but if every generic dude is dead at min 8 gun push, well, that just isn’t fun.

The ladder team balances based on the potential for gameplay but sometimes theoreticals differ from reality and the polls are meant to give additional insight on the ladder community’s opinion. It’s meant to both address the accusations of “elitism” as well as “inactivity” from the ladder team as now we have a way to interact with the community in our calculations.

If you have a problem wih me and my “Tokyto-like” ways, you can always make a case to the Council on why my ineptitude requires my immediate replacement.
Are you upset? Are you happy? Are you a FAF Player? Come to the PC Discord and share your thoughts and build the community!

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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby Morax » 04 Dec 2018, 16:37

I would not complain about you in a formal manner unless you did some really egregious activity such as stopping having any tournaments.

Having a poll to make sure you got your heads in the right direction seems okay, but as you stated it's "50% weight" of the ladder map selection, which seems a bit high since the ladder team's is "50%" as well. How can a team of people who make well-thought, decided analysis through the spreadsheet have equal weight to something such as a simple poll?

You have to consider the fact that the first poll, which received ~150 votes, could have been anyone: not necessarily a 1v1 player, someone who plays a ton, some random dude who has played the maps and just wants to share his opinion. When you have people like "moses the red," who go on and on about their values and opinions, while 90% of the community disagrees with them, you are getting bad data.

The poll should check who is actually playing, or at least has a lot of history, e.g. Mozart who is kind of inactive.
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby Medicraze » 05 Dec 2018, 00:11

If I may respond to Morax's original post and some of the things being said here.
Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfd1HJZBzM
New title: Good map, not enough time
New Description: It has come to my attention that this is being interpreted as a negative view on the map. I want to be clear on this. This is a great map, but I had no time for a long game. I wanted a quick one and done.
I featured this video because of the delicious bomber.

Morax, the creator of this map and active member of the community (and general good guy) pointed this out.

I will leave this video up, because I believe it is at the least entertaining.

Again: NOT ripping on the map. THIS IS A GOOD MAP THAT IS PROPERLY MADE. SOMETIMES YOU JUST DON'T HAVE TIME FOR A LARGE MAP!


negative-ad campaigning
Response: I don't like negative ad campaigns. This brings nothing productive to the table. My execution was poor. I meant nothing by this video outside for entertainment and awesome bomber. I asked you if you wanted me to take the video down via PM on slack, to which you stated it was fine. My apology if this has offended you. I've changed the title. PM me if you'd rather I remove it. I bear no hard feelings towards you or anyone. Frankly, people just don't know how much work and soul is required for map making, and I want to say this is one of the better ones.

Gauge player opinion of map
Response: This is a statistical variable as part of a NOIR survey (Nominal-Ordinal-Interval-Ratio) aspect of survey. It may be limited and incomplete, but it is still a viable variable.

I don't have time to play a 20km and okay onto the next game
Response: Game was over quickly, and I wanted to chance a quick 5x5 or something. Don't let the heuristic bias fill the voids.

This video didn't need to exist
Response: But it was entertaining?


SIDE NOTES:
I would spend the time to point out some things regarding the poll and some of the fallacies associated with proper program planning (which includes survey) but my carb alarm just rang, so it's time for my run.

I do want to note, at least something is being assessed, and for that I command those of you who volunteer your time to even be bothered. You are cherished. (that includes you Morax)

Check out the FDA program guidelines, there may be some insightful information there. I'll edit this comment after I go for my run and include links and tidy up... If I remember. lol
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby Mad`Mozart » 05 Dec 2018, 03:29

Morax wrote:You have to consider the fact that the first poll, which received ~150 votes, could have been anyone: not necessarily a 1v1 player, someone who plays a ton, some random dude who has played the maps and just wants to share his opinion. When you have people like "moses the red," who go on and on about their values and opinions, while 90% of the community disagrees with them, you are getting bad data.

I like this part the most, so the dude is legit part of the community and has his opinion. Maybe he even plays ladder. It just so happens that you dont like him and disagree with him, so his opinion is not valid now as a player now :D So we should build a better system that cuts off his opinion on what maps he dislikes to play, and instead focus on getting valid opinions that go in line with your vision of how ladder should be? Whew, whiff that!
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Re: The Problem With "Multiple Choice Polling"

Postby Morax » 05 Dec 2018, 14:34

Mozart, it's not opinion; he is legit, plain wrong in many of his assumptions.

You can't deny that fact and opinion exist within this game.

Read up, and yeah, it's okay to exclude people who consistently demonstrate an inability to understand facts.
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