M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby FtXCommando » 21 Dec 2017, 14:04

Downlord wrote:I'm in [e], too. Why? Because those were the people I got into contact with while contributing to FAF.

So yes, [e] did attract people of similar mindset. The mindset of investing time into FAF rather than just complaining.


Yeah, sure, I knew that was immediately going to be the response. It's going to lead to a chicken-or-the-egg conversation so I'm just going to ask you this:

Is it not possible for people in other clans to contribute? I can understand this being the reasoning for people that joined [e] after joining the Council of Setons as they likely never really associated much with others in the community outside of the people already in positions of power. They saw people higher up were in [e] and ultimately ended up joining the clan. However, I still feel that it ends up soft-locking viewpoints from discussions.

I personally would like to see more viewpoints present on the Council of Setons, if others disagree, that's fair but it's an issue that is pretty important to me.
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby JJ173 » 21 Dec 2017, 14:07

If I may add my two cents here also.

The position of the M&M councillor was never "hidden". It has always been a public topic. You can even check the wiki of our council for reference: https://wiki.faforever.com/index.php?ti ... _of_Setons

Judging from the applicants, I have to say this in total honesty without the need of causing anymore issues in this thread that will risk adding more fire to the already burning flame. Personally, I am not convinced that your application is going to get you very far, moon. I'd rather be honest here, instead of having you find out another way. Your behaviour on Discord has already caused many problems, and in all honest I think you're quite a hand full. Dismissing this, there has also been very little contribution from you, so that may shine a differently. However, I do not feel the need to dismiss your application fully. My vote leans towards speed2. This is mainly due to his work ethic and contribution to FAF. His professionalism also shines a light on his application.

Biass, I am very interested to see that you've applied here. I've seen you contribute and I can't say I'm disappointed. When I dig past the wall of some-what weird personality and odd behaviour, I see some potential. My only concern about you here is your attitude. There's a weight of professionalism that is to be obtained when applying for a position on the council (in my eyes anyway) due to users looking up to us to get things done. I know part of my position is to deal with complaints, and that must be done to a professional standard. You may prove me wrong, but unfortunately your reputation does indeed leave a small stain here which is why I'm sceptical.

This topic has shined a light on the idea of a true election, of which in my opinion should be held.
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby JJ173 » 21 Dec 2017, 14:14

FtXCommando wrote:
Is it not possible for people in other clans to contribute? I can understand this being the reasoning for people that joined [e] after joining the Council of Setons as they likely never really associated much with others in the community outside of the people already in positions of power. They saw people higher up were in [e] and ultimately ended up joining the clan. However, I still feel that it ends up soft-locking viewpoints from discussions.

I personally would like to see more viewpoints present on the Council of Setons, if others disagree, that's fair but it's an issue that is pretty important to me.


Other clans are free to contribute as they like, you are always welcome to add an application to the process. I'm with Downlord on this. I joined [e] because I liked the people, and I also like the work they do for FAF in general, whether that's being on the council or developing coop or managing the wiki. We as a clan are not contributing to one-up everyone, we just enjoy the idea of development. That being said, you personally and some of your clan members are also welcome to do so. There are no restrictions on who can apply and who can contribute.

You can start small by contributing here or dive in to the deep end with an application for this role.
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby FtXCommando » 21 Dec 2017, 14:24

JJ173 wrote:
FtXCommando wrote:
Is it not possible for people in other clans to contribute? I can understand this being the reasoning for people that joined [e] after joining the Council of Setons as they likely never really associated much with others in the community outside of the people already in positions of power. They saw people higher up were in [e] and ultimately ended up joining the clan. However, I still feel that it ends up soft-locking viewpoints from discussions.

I personally would like to see more viewpoints present on the Council of Setons, if others disagree, that's fair but it's an issue that is pretty important to me.


Other clans are free to contribute as they like, you are always welcome to add an application to the process. I'm with Downlord on this. I joined [e] because I liked the people, and I also like the work they do for FAF in general, whether that's being on the council or developing coop or managing the wiki. We as a clan are not contributing to one-up everyone, we just enjoy the idea of development. That being said, you personally and some of your clan members are also welcome to do so. There are no restrictions on who can apply and who can contribute.

You can start small by contributing here or dive in to the deep end with an application for this role.


I don't have the experience to get myself through the first stage of the process. I'd be refuted at the same tier as moon did in my own way of looking at the applicants. I'd rather help biass get the position than diluting people's attention with an application that wouldn't matter.

I understand that you guys would have development as a large focus of who you are in [e]. I'm not going to sit here and psychoanalyze you guys as it would be disrespectful considering a lot of you guys don't know me and I don't know you. I just hope you can see where my worry is coming from when people in power associate with people similar to them and it turns out that those people similar to them are other people in power.
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby Exotic_Retard » 21 Dec 2017, 14:32

well all this is good and all but i think that a few people are missing the point here.

becoming a councillor isnt some sort of magic bullet that suddenly gives you insane powers and then you can fix all of faf.

you do work first, and then because of that work you get the position - those people who got into it like that continued to be great contributors and fulfilling their new duties. others who just got picked or elected ended up not doing that much. now ofc its a little hard to tell whos doing what work but if you care to find out you can.

those who expect to suddenly get server acccess and easily fix all of fafs problems are gonna get disappointed, its like becoming a mod, you get like 2 new toys and a whole bunch of hatemail xD


to me this kinda of stuff isnt about nonsense like fairness or w.e. its about getting the person best for the job, into the job (aka common sense) now its not as simple as picking speed2 because its also a question of extra contribution - someone else might start contributing more, while speed is already doing a lot, so it might be harder for him to be doing even more.

well i might have gone for biass tbh but he kinda loves to shoot himself in the foot with his attitude. i dont want people like that representing faf tbh, but biass could have gone places if not for that. rather top bloke when hes not being a d*** imo. i dont expect his attidude to suddenly change, thats not how people work. well gently i dunno i just dont expect him to do anything, he seems to be in the crowd that thinks positions on faf make it somehow easier. dunno about moon, im cool with him, but also havent seen much out of him, tried to prod him a couple of times to do work but he didnt seem to be too interested, could encourage him to help out first or something, wouldnt go for full councillor role though because we know how much time it takes for us to change one, need to put someone in there who we know will do stuff. so yeah, speed2 is probably the only choice here, out of everyone he is the guy i know will do the most work in that position xD
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby ozonex » 21 Dec 2017, 14:49

Reading posts that not anybody is allowed to contribute or that something is hidden from public feels so abstract.

Anyone is allowed to do anything but to do so you need to spend time on it first. When I see something is broken or I want it to be changed I just do it without asking anybody for permission. Even if I can't do it then I write post on forum or message someone who may know how to do it. Then if it's working and everybody likes it then it goes live.

Not everything is posted to public because most of talk on slack is just technical stuff, people talking how to do something. Even if there is something that can be public but its not, its because nobody have time to do it. These who contribute spend most of their free time on it. Writing post and everything takes precious time that can be spend on doing something more useful (like fixing servers or other bugs). Everyone is welcome to contribute to FAF, actually when I read slack conversations I see how much FAF is leaking man power to do stuff. When someone writes that he want to contribute there are messages like "OMG! He want to do something! Write to him fast!".

Even if you don't have technical knowledge you can still make forum post explaining whats wrong and what do you think can be done to change it. Help people who knows how to do it.

I will definitely vote for Speed2 because he is a guy who always found some time to help me when I wanted to contribute. He has also lot of knowledge how to do mod/maps stuff.
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby CookieNoob » 21 Dec 2017, 15:02

ozonex wrote:Anyone is allowed to do anything but to do so you need to spend time on it first. When I see something is broken or I want it to be changed I just do it without asking anybody for permission. Even if I can't do it then I write post on forum or message someone who may know how to do it. Then if it's working and everybody likes it then it goes live.
yea indeed. I made most of the code that went into the last game patch (including targeting with the torp upgrade from cybran, fixes of bugs that were present since years,...) and I didnt have to be elected/specially chosen/a member of [e]. Anyone who would like to can always start contributing.

About the candidates:
I dont like biass, it may be related with how he usually just trolls other ppl on the forum and elsewhere. He was banned for that from the forum quite regularly. Having such a person to be a representative for FAF is a no-go in my oppinion. About his ability to work with other mappers (as he said, modding is not his strong side): A while ago, I wanted to host a testing week for new maps to iron out bugs, increase the quality of maps in the vault in general and to create an incentive to play new and different maps. His reply to that was "cant you test your own maps" (Chevalier made a nice comment on that /viewtopic. ... 42#p138614). This is even more relevant for the M&M position than for the player councilor position he applied for before.

Speed2 is very nice and always helpful on the other side. He's a mod for a long time and is the main person behind the coop stuff. He created some maps as well and wrote guides on that, so he also has the ability and will to help others doing that. He is definetely the better candidate.
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby Franck83 » 21 Dec 2017, 15:30

ozonex wrote:Writing post and everything takes precious time that can be spend on doing something more useful (like fixing servers or other bugs). Everyone is welcome to contribute to FAF, actually when I read slack conversations I see how much FAF is leaking man power to do stuff


I agree. Everybody should ask himself sometimes : "Do i spend too much time debating compared to creative work or fixing bugs?"
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby moonbearonmeth » 21 Dec 2017, 15:35

Exotic_Retard wrote:dunno about moon, im cool with him, but also havent seen much out of him, tried to prod him a couple of times to do work but he didnt seem to be too interested


Like I totally didn't do everything you asked.
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Re: M&M Councillor and Map Vault Cleanse

Postby biass » 21 Dec 2017, 15:50

CookieNoob wrote:I dont like biass, it may be related with how he usually just trolls other ppl on the forum and elsewhere. He was banned for that from the forum quite regularly. (citation needed)

About his ability to work with other mappers me A while ago, I wanted to host a testing week for MY new maps to iron out bugs, increase the quality of ONLY MY maps in the vault in general and to create an incentive to play new and differentONLY my maps. His reply to that was "cant you test your own maps"


I encourage readers to look down past the highlighted post and see my reasoning behind what i said, which was met with a "go away".

Cookie and i worked together on the adaptive maps project in it's early stages, and after a short while i began to feel disheartened with some flaws i saw in the early versions, related to how messy the code looked in the lobby, the removal of mexes/reclaim from empty spots, and a few other things, i then decided to take my content i had created (my canis version) and release it as a separate version. After which, i was hounded down in pm in an attempt to "correct" any wrong thoughts i had and then after that (rightfully) didn't go anywhere, was subjected to abuse at every conversation point and a almost year/2? year long grudge, which clearly hasn't - despite my willingness and (admittingly, sparse.) attempts to communicate, ended.

If you believe disagreeing with someone is a form of trolling you are clearly mistaken, and your inability to listen to feedback has caused multiple divides not only between us, but with other groups of people you happen to interact with. I do not accept this post, if you write out only paragraphs of hate for one canidate and then use "he made some maps and stuff" to push your preferred candidate when candidate aforementioned has also done that same clearly shows a cloud and a bias in your thought.

I'm willing to drop any "behaviour" issues (which, im waiting for you to actually tell me about, because I've asked about multiple times with no answer given yet) and am willing to adopt a harder professionalism when needed, as i have already displayed in this thread, i'm willing to cooperate with anyone who is going to give me the light of day, i don't hold grudges here. I had written a larger post addressing why i thought my "behaviour" might be "bad" but i dropped it, i'm not offended by any form of insults, and while i recognise other users tone or how they think of other people when they speak to them, i typically do not comment until it goes out of hand.

This is all im going to say on the topic, the only relevant part was "actually talk to me about your problems instead of weaponize them later on down the line". I WILL treat you like an adult if you can return me the same favour.
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Last edited by biass on 21 Dec 2017, 15:58, edited 2 times in total.
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