Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby TheKoopa » 09 Nov 2017, 15:00

PhilipJFry wrote:i don't think a single dev does this as their personal playground
they do it because they like this game and don't want it/the community around it to disappear

people like you talking shit might wanna step back and think more about how to contribute in a meaningful way instead of just accusing other people


And here we have gone full circle into what I call a "religious complex," in which any points that point out the developers shortcomings or negative aspects are immediately shot down by the devs themselves or their "followers." Note that it's not done by counter argumentation usually but by ad hominem, which we so strive to avoid.

But because I am a kind person, I will instead point out the many reasons why faf now is worse than zep's era.

1) Server switch was a disaster

Whether this was avoidable or not is debatable, but it still makes it a significant time in our client's history. For no less than 1-2 years, the main client's map and mod vault were completely broken (and the map vault actually continues to be broken to this day). It also significantly worsened connection problems which are also still unanswered to this day until ICE comes out a full 3 years later [from the switch]

(Notice how I emphasis years).

2) My statement on coding playground

There is a degree of experimentation that you have to do with code, yes, but the direction faf takes it is a little bit much. Stuff like viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14537&p=148511&hilit=Lobby+colors#p148473
which are simply done because "we can do it" despite the fact it was a serious downgrade from the previous incarnation of something. There are more examples, but the point is across.

3) Patch times

This also pertains to the time frame needed to fix basic features. Let's go over a list of features that zep had working to almost full capacity (if not full) that do not work as well today.
3a) Connections have significantly worsened ever since zep left with nothing much being done about it. At one point there was a minimum of 1 person losing connection every single game. While that has been somewhat alleviated today, it's still worse than when we had tcp and proxies.
3b) If something broke, zep fixed it almost immediately and without major problems (some exceptions here of course like coop) and would send out a patch no later than 1 day after. Meanwhile, here, they are just forgotten.

4) Broken and/or missing features

This part is what kills me to write. Here's a list of stuff missing or broken features after zep quit:

4a) galactic war
4b) team matchmaker
4c) ladder divisions
4d) tournament tab (though this was spaghetti before too)
4e) working map vault for the python client
4f) properly working moderator tools
4g) properly working avatar system
4h) ladder connections

There are quite major features that are still to this day, either not fixed or not fixed into its complete form, with instead a bandaid put over it to cover the wound.

5) Developer attitudes

This honestly deserves another essay of its own which I will write later.

Enjoy the essay lads
Last edited by TheKoopa on 09 Nov 2017, 15:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby PhilipJFry » 09 Nov 2017, 15:15

good job you've listed stuff that doesn't work

that doesn't mean that the devs don't care about that fact and neither does it help fixing them

instead you could maybe think about how to help the devs in a more meaningful way
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby IceDreamer » 09 Nov 2017, 15:16

Many valid points. Certainly there is some good discussion to be had here on these, though we will need to clarify the facts when it comes to connection stability.

@Phil - actually it was a very good post. Concise lists of what people see isn't working are the first step to prioritising dev time,abd we just got a handful of new devs the past couple of weeks. Might be able to point them at some of this stuff.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby Gorton » 09 Nov 2017, 15:47

TheKoopa wrote:4a) galactic war
4b) team matchmaker
4c) ladder divisions
4d) tournament tab (though this was spaghetti before too)
4e) working map vault for the python client
4f) properly working moderator tools
4g) properly working avatar system
4h) ladder connections


Those were also large problems under zep, nothing of that worked except for the vault.
Some of them are actually fixed/getting better.

TheKoopa wrote:with instead a bandaid put over it to cover the wound


This is my new favourite quote, btw.
The state of the code previously was, if referencing a body, held together more by bandaids than structure.
Zep was unfortunately unable to fix this, he had limited time, and was working essentially alone for the vast majority of the project.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby Farmsletje » 09 Nov 2017, 15:47

PhilipJFry wrote:instead you could maybe think about how to help the devs in a more meaningful way

You just completely proved his point...
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby speed2 » 09 Nov 2017, 15:49

TheKoopa wrote:2) My statement on coding playground

There is a degree of experimentation that you have to do with code, yes, but the direction faf takes it is a little bit much. Stuff like viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14537&p=148511&hilit=Lobby+colors#p148473
which are simply done because "we can do it" despite the fact it was a serious downgrade from the previous incarnation of something. There are more examples, but the point is across.

It was for more than month for players to test and provide feedback before it got released, no one complained in that period

Tell me how exactly should we bring new stuff, if not to make them, put them for testing and if they got tested, and let me repeat myself: no one is against in the month long testing period, merge them?

TheKoopa wrote:3b) If something broke, zep fixed it almost immediately and without major problems (some exceptions here of course like coop) and would send out a patch no later than 1 day after. Meanwhile, here, they are just forgotten.

Zep was good at hacking in some solution in few days that later broke something else, and then repeat.
TheKoopa wrote:4) Broken and/or missing features
4a) galactic war

We also did not have it when Zep was leaving (later he claimed it was easy to bring it back but well... from what Ive seen to far I have my doubts)
TheKoopa wrote:4b) team matchmaker

Again it was Zep who put it down, how can you blame us for this? He forced everyone to swich to it for major testing, ppl hated it and he removed it...
Then again, even if he had to hack code, show me one person who would want to pick it up?
TheKoopa wrote:4c) ladder divisions

That worked and I want it back as well
TheKoopa wrote:4d) tournament tab (though this was spaghetti before too)

Yes, that's another example of thing that worked just something, was buggy and pretty much the code quallity killed it. And faster then trying to fix something like that is to make it properly.
TheKoopa wrote:4f) properly working moderator tools

We never had any moderator tools. The only thing was !ban and !kick for chat, we have that now as well. + now can can also "easily" request full client bans.
TheKoopa wrote:4g) properly working avatar system

What do you mean by this? Avatars being assigned for ladder? If so then yes, else what he have right now is much better as moderators can actually manage the avatars, add new ones, rename, etc...
TheKoopa wrote:4h) ladder connections

That's just the problem of overall connection issue that will be solved by ICE and Downlord explained quite nicely why the connections are getting worse in his devblog posts
TheKoopa wrote:There are quite major features that are still to this day, either not fixed or not fixed into its complete form, with instead a bandaid put over it to cover the wound.

Its not so easy as it seems to temporary hack in some solution like Zep did, and some of us don't want to spend time on things that will break in next few days.
TheKoopa wrote:5) Developer attitudes

Zep would have banned you long time ago. Yet we didn't, so Im not sure how that got worse?
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby biass » 09 Nov 2017, 15:54

developer attitudes are not on the list of things that got worse since zep times if you uh, read the post

moderator professionalism on the other hand....

--------

Double post:
Why bother having to write down some heated response about 50 seconds after any sort of feedback? This happens everywhere, maps, balance, here, why not take your time to collect thoughts and just make a small post saying "we read this, lets have a discussion about it sometime" ? it's good PR, Ice is the shining example here, unlike giant china walls of text that are barely thought out and not well constructed?
Last edited by biass on 09 Nov 2017, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby CookieNoob » 09 Nov 2017, 15:59

@dstj:
making a 3599 mod based on the current gamepatch is actually not that straight forward as any change in the current FAF patch would alter the game with the 3599 Sim mod as well.

Making a featured mod however would be really simple. It wouldnt even require any LUA files, it just needs an init file that doesnt load any FAF files from the FAF-gamedata folder (this is trivial, just take an init file from the default faf gamemod and remove the imports of the faf files). This approach is a bit problematic as players with steam/any other gamepatch which isnt 3599 for their base game will not be able to play with the mod as it doesnt modify anything. The real solution would be to include a check in the init file and hook/overwrite the Lua functions that are changed from 3599->3603 (steam) and for any other previous patch that could potentially be encountered on FAF.

The result is basically the vanilla game with the same balance and ALL bugs (the bugfixes of FAF are obvioulsy not included). IceDreamer suggested to take the current FAF gamepatch and to remove all balance changes/feature additions from the gamefiles. In my oppinion this will take forever especially since some changes in the blueprints are not balance related but actually fixing issues. What you should do is to make an init file for the 3599 mod that loads the game and then subsequently add version checks to the init file to hook LUA files if needed to patch the game from the steam version to 3599 (or any other version).
Check out the next level of maps: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=13014
For adaptivity, customizability and less clutter in the vault.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby Downlord » 09 Nov 2017, 16:13

Do you want to know why 1, 4b, 4c, 4d, 4e, 4f, 4g and 4h are on TheKoopa's list?

I can tell you. But I will be stirring up a hornet's nest. But some people need to face the truth. And others need to learn about the truth.

Do you remember the Open Letter To Ze_PilOt? Do me one favor, read it again. Read it carefully, right now. Look who wrote it.

Done? Good. Now look at these links:

https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... pe=Commits
https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... pe=Commits
https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... =%E2%9C%93
https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... pe=Commits
https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... pe=Commits
https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... =%E2%9C%93
https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... =%E2%9C%93
https://github.com/FAForever/server/sea ... =%E2%9C%93

There's a ton more I could say about this. But I've put enough gas into the fire by now, so I leave it up to you to come up with conclusions.

There ARE solutions to make FAF great again.
Working on FAF is my passion. Most of you know me for the feature-rich Downlord's FAF Client, but I also program and maintain the FAF server. Visit my Patreon page to get some insights on my work.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby Petricpwnz » 09 Nov 2017, 17:00

Sooo... Sheeo complained about zep being "slow" (hahaha) on fixing those issues and gw being stale, then he got full freedom to work on them but its 3 years later and list of issues is all the same if not bigger.
You know there is a lot of praise to be given to some of the work, java client in particular developed from scratch and has more working features than official one. But then there are things like this, and who knows maybe that post was one of the last nails in the coffin of zeps patience, despite Zep being a "dictator" I'm convinced that dictatorship is the best leadership faf can have and with the amount of constant complaints he was getting he did a much better job than most would. Anyway, current system is stagnating to the fullest too, councillor positions are hard locked and any complaint is "dont you dare discuss this, WhAt HavE yOU dOne To cONTribUte to Faf?". Remember that thing they signed, "I pledge to spend at least 4 hours per week on my councillor duties... etc." Good thing there is someone controlling this, right? There is no control over anyone and I get it, it's a volunteer job nobody get's rewarded for, but are you really trying to reward people?
I'm gonna bring myself up as an example, recently I picked up the lead on balance work for upcoming t3 patch which has been stagnating for like 2 years or so?
And you know what really motivates me? Mods taking away my avatar that I got for doing heavy testing on this t3 2 years ago. Oh yes, really feeling rewarded here man.
So there is no direct control over some mandatory duties and people who work just because get more shit on than rewarded.
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