Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby Brutus5000 » 09 Nov 2017, 01:48

Morax wrote:1) Mr-Smith left because he no longer cares to keep learning the game over and over due to drastic balance changes and updates
2) Taffy quit because since he works now he doesn't have time to keep up with the drastic changes as well
3) Blackheart stopped playing regularly for likely the same reasons
4) galacticfear quit because you changed the balance in a way that makes traditional setons games FAR different
5) Many 1v1 players from the United States and timezone behind EU has quit because of players that quit for along the same reasons
6) Adding equilibrium to global points proved the devs are not making the right decision to PROACTIVELY improve the system and rather continue to just point out that we "do not understand the maths" or are not worthy


Except for 6) none of this has anything to do with development of client or server. The game team is a completely different one.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby IceDreamer » 09 Nov 2017, 03:07

Cannot personally speak for jackherer's contribution or lack of, but biass has definitely done his part above and beyond most people for the FAF project, so can we address points and arguments rather than even hint at ad-hominem attacks please?




Morax wrote:
Downlord wrote:1) Mr-Smith left because he no longer cares to keep learning the game over and over due to drastic balance changes and updates
2) Taffy quit because since he works now he doesn't have time to keep up with the drastic changes as well
3) Blackheart stopped playing regularly for likely the same reasons
4) galacticfear quit because you changed the balance in a way that makes traditional setons games FAR different
5) Many 1v1 players from the United States and timezone behind EU has quit because of players that quit for along the same reasons
6) Adding equilibrium to global points proved the devs are not making the right decision to PROACTIVELY improve the system and rather continue to just point out that we "do not understand the maths" or are not worthy


I do feel the need to make a counter-argument here. I would argue, strongly, that a player whos mindset is that 'Very little should change so I don't have to learn again', and who gives up when that happens, is in essense not actually a competitive player at all.

As evidence, I bring up the massively growing world of E-Sports to the table. Examine the games, their progress and changelogs, and the discussion boards for their competitive groups (I personally follow the competitive worlds of DOTA 2, Overwatch, CS:GO and Team Fortress 2), and there are two constants. Firstly, all of these games are affected by development and gameplay changes that are deliberately and forcefully shifting the metagame, and in dramatic ways. Secondly, that the best players in the game, those celebrated and lauded by fans, are those who adapt most quickly to the meta shifts. They display the true depth of their skill in that adaptability, that they understand how the game flows under the hood and see what the developers did, and why. I do not speak for anyone other than myself here, but aside from my respect for their sheer skill, I have never had much respect for the additude towards the game of any of those you picked to name :(

I will also point out that people's lives do move on, and I wouldn't expect to keep players for longer than a few years at the very top. Very, very few pro gamers manage that, in any game. For me, I'm much more concerned about the part of this you and others got right: New people don't appear to be replacing the old guard at the same skill level.

On a happier note, you're absolutely right about the rating system causing issues. Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I really don't think it's in a good place right now. I am not certain if the mess that is the rating system, or the gameplay and balance, are more to blame for the lack of replacement top players, but I'd be willing to bet both play a part. Adding EQ (And now BHEdit) to the rating system was always acknowledged to be a kind of band-aid, not a cure. I remember talking this through with you, and I was very clear that I think the way forwards is some kind of multi-faceted averaging system. I would also argue for a rating reset of... some kind.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby Viba » 09 Nov 2017, 03:45

IceDreamer wrote:As evidence, I bring up the massively growing world of E-Sports to the table. Examine the games, their progress and changelogs, and the discussion boards for their competitive groups (I personally follow the competitive worlds of DOTA 2, Overwatch, CS:GO and Team Fortress 2), and there are two constants. Firstly, all of these games are affected by development and gameplay changes that are deliberately and forcefully shifting the metagame, and in dramatic ways. Secondly, that the best players in the game, those celebrated and lauded by fans, are those who adapt most quickly to the meta shifts. They display the true depth of their skill in that adaptability, that they understand how the game flows under the hood and see what the developers did, and why. I do not speak for anyone other than myself here, but aside from my respect for their sheer skill, I have never had much respect for the additude towards the game of any of those you picked to name :(

Just lurking this thread but I had to point out that maybe comparing FAF to e-sports communities with 100 or 1000 times the playerbase FAF has isn't too realistic in most of the cases, can't always apply same thoughts and practices to both, apples and pears.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby TheKoopa » 09 Nov 2017, 05:16

The thing is, esports players make enough money to make the game their life

Faf players don't
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby biass » 09 Nov 2017, 05:22

kappa @ tat$u, please stop talking to me like you're the only one in the room with knowledge of the subject; thanks.

Okay, so why does anyone let alone devs get some sort of pedestal where they are immune to any form of critique? It's a harmful way of going about it, it numbs down any form of potential praise you can give them if they went in the right direction, and also leads people to feel free to push how far they can go outside of the scope/boundary they're supposed to be confined to, I've done stuff for faf in everywhere from web code to modelling and ofc mapping, and i would be disgusted if people took me as something more then just their peer.

Downlord, go back and re-read what you wrote in that thread, remember all the other times faf "officials" have taken a shit on dsto and his work and then ask yourself, is that post really "suggesting Dstojkov to contribute to FAF instead of working on his own thing." You don't convince someone to come help you out by saying that his labor of love for the past 4 years(!) was a waste of time, it's already clear that he started this because of his disagreements with faf (balance, mod treatment, etc) and the idea that all the shit-flinging would make him stop and help faf out is already an impossible sell.

People need to actually be convinced to work on projects, you cannot just assume they'll help you out for whatever reason, and that's coming from me, who spent upwards on 7 hours or so sorting out the mess that was the bhedit changes file. Maybe that is why you're down on manpower in the first place? it's already unrewarding as it can be, meager advertising on how to join, and then this drama crap? Watching people talk trash is sure as hell discouraging at least to me.

Here is some other stuff i personally take issue with that have been brought up here but are not really on the topic:
As ice said, the number of individual user accounts is climbing but the amount of real "players" is slowly going down, to a point where i can count the amount of people who might be playing ladder in my bracket in under one hand.
Ladder after a year of knowledge of the issue is still a unrewarding, underdeveloped system with a high barrier of entry to new players that had perfectly fine solutions pushed aside because of the promise of a new system that never came around, or did we all forget that? did we all forget leagues and divisions?

Development of balance patches even after shitstorm after shitstorm is still being developed in a "push first" take now-made-irrelevant feedback later system, which hurts both the team and the players who have to deal with eachother, while they're slowly making changes with the help of dedicated individuals there is still no real way for people to read up on changes and get a way into the action outside of the most astute forum lurkers. With what will be maybe the most controversial patch since 3650 can we please have patchnotes and advertising for feedback at least a week in advance? if you're struggling for testing why not make fafdevelop rated or something similar during that time? Hell dude, even if it was rated already just saying that it is in a visible post will cause people to bite.

that's it, cannot w8 for your "response"
with love
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Last edited by biass on 09 Nov 2017, 08:34, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby nine2 » 09 Nov 2017, 06:14

*gets popcorn*
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby FtXCommando » 09 Nov 2017, 08:31

IceDreamer wrote:As evidence, I bring up the massively growing world of E-Sports to the table. Examine the games, their progress and changelogs, and the discussion boards for their competitive groups (I personally follow the competitive worlds of DOTA 2, Overwatch, CS:GO and Team Fortress 2), and there are two constants. Firstly, all of these games are affected by development and gameplay changes that are deliberately and forcefully shifting the metagame, and in dramatic ways. Secondly, that the best players in the game, those celebrated and lauded by fans, are those who adapt most quickly to the meta shifts.


I know.

I KNOW.

I KNOW!!!!!! that you did NOT just CITE fucking COUNTER STRIKE as an example of META THAT FORCEFULLY SHIFTS IN DRAMATIC WAYS. I've been in the Counter-Strike community since 1.6 and you will not find a group of no-life pieces of garbage anywhere else that will type novels on forums over a box being moved 30 cm on a map. These people are less likely to see a change in game doctrine than the Catholic Church. I seriously doubt you personally follow CS:GO if you just cited the most conservative game community to ever possibly exist in human history outside of board-games as a game that shifts meta in dramatic ways.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby tatsu » 09 Nov 2017, 09:34

jackherer wrote:To end this, Tatsu wtf!! I've also spend time for faf (infinite way less than Downloard i agree), i'm not tryng to be hatefull or derogatory i have no idea why you try to make me pass for a troll. Maybe read back my activity on the forum...

I'm sorry man.

If it wasn't meant to be aggressive please be more careful.

I read english as english not as english + franglisms (as does everyone, you can't expect the contrary and even if we did the results would vary too much) so you can't allow it to be pinned on that

also your post really was hurtful, if you feel you've been discredited for your work in my post then go back and read yours and you'll see that you discredit all of FaF devs even further.

I'm not trying to start a strife.

first off any FAFer is a brother of mine. second even further still when they're french.

but I think noone's untouchable when it comes to being reprimanded by me for bashing the volunteer devs that make faf.

In my humble opinion nothing in the whole wide world could be more gratuitous then that. there's such a ginormous split between the sense of wrongdoing in the devs and the actual truth.

someone has to be there to bring these people back to the surface of a place we call earth and a plane of existence we call reality. someone has to fact check them. and I'm not saying it should be me, in fact it shouldn't : I'm terrible at facts and I'm not all that knowledgeable a dev. but I've seen noone stepping up and that what drives the split even deeper and wider and causes me so much distress.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby Franck83 » 09 Nov 2017, 10:26

I'm not old in the FAF community. But from i can read maybe one issue can be the patch rate of change. Ok for bug resolving, but...

...why not only planning 1 time / year Balance/Gameplay changes ?

- Let the time to discuss and maturate changes.
- Let the time to players to adapt.

You can put a lot of efforts on dev, go further but at the same time not necessary post changes too often.

Just like in formula one. Each season has its own set of rules. We can do FAF Balance Patch 2017 Edition of the Year.
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Re: Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

Postby biass » 09 Nov 2017, 10:39

tfw ignored

Franck83 wrote:Just like in formula one. Each season has its own set of rules. We can do FAF Balance Patch 2017 Edition of the Year.


what

tatsu wrote:snip


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/holier-than-thou
Last edited by biass on 09 Nov 2017, 11:51, edited 1 time in total.
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