Why FAF has been progressing slowly (renamed)

[FtXCommando]

In my experience good players beat bad players due to superior eco management. Good players beat good players through better unit positioning/usage. That’s a generalization but it’s what I’ve found over the replays I’ve watched.

To me it feels like you don’t really appreciate the unit usage part of sup com because the eco part is just unnatural to you. Sup com doesn’t need to be a game where you micromanage each individual unit, the managing of raid groups and battlefields for reclaim advantage are interesting in their own right.

[biass]

When are we gonna have a discussion about the re-emerging plague upon the community that has been hinted in these last couple of thread pages and is "map elitism"
"mmmmmmmmmmm im so much more intellectual then these gap peasants *scoffs* *hosts canis 6v6 *"

also

The problem is, I am a perfectionist. I don't want to learn how to do good builds

what
and

Thank you for your constructive manner of arguing.

@Endranii: I won't bother to quote that typerrhea, nobody want's to see text like that a second time.

buddy i come in here and defend your right to speak from people and u squander it

[This_Guy]

60 APM represent....

*sobs quietly into corner*

Please, talk to me when you max out at 40.

xD

[dstojkov]

The problem is, I am a perfectionist. I don't want to learn how to do good builds without manual small rock reclaim/tree reclaim if I know doing it is the optimal way.
Things like factory attack move are especially punishing for new players because the order is lost when you fail to balance your eco (so you are doubly screwed).

Yeah every game has his own sugar but hey You can still ask Morax/biass to build marvelous maps without reclaim at all ! I am sure they have nothing against that.

Btw ... I am still waiting for my map dstojkov's revenge

[biass]

it would make our job a lot easier if people wanted 0 reclaim maps

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

The problem is, I am a perfectionist. I don't want to learn how to do good builds

what

The sentence only makes sense when you quote it whole

buddy i come in here and defend your right to speak from people and u squander it

What?

Had there not be a core of some arguments in that post, I would not have responded to them. But the wrapping of Endranii's post really is just abysmal. It reads like a 13 year old CS:GOler's lulz and roflz. When I work about 20-30 minutes on a post, trying to argue well and someone responses like that I will point out how his post is an abysmal read.

you might remember the thread you made about area commands and the strong opposition to the idea of adding them to the game
a few patches back we also toyed with the idea of removing tree group breaking for engies but that was also not appreciated

Yes, but there where also a good amount of people heavily defending the idea. I know about the tree group change and I got really excited about it when I read the beta patch notes. I was disappointed the change was cut (and I stopped playing shortly thereafter).

I'm certainly not against reclaim and I'm certainly not against the eco management part of SupCom. Those are core elements of the game. Area commands and removing tree group breaking are simple ease of use features in my eyes.

I would really love more change in that direction. But I think the discussion is getting way too much into the intricacies of pros and cons of the changes I would like to see (and others really don't want to see), derailing the thread. So I will try to stop perpetuating that topic.

[Morax]

Yes, but there where also a good amount of people heavily defending the idea. I know about the tree group change and I got really excited about it when I read the beta patch notes. I was disappointed the change was cut (and I stopped playing shortly thereafter).

I'm certainly not against reclaim and I'm certainly not against the eco management part of SupCom. Those are core elements of the game. Area commands and removing tree group breaking are simple ease of use features in my eyes.

I would really love more change in that direction. But I think the discussion is getting way too much into the intricacies of pros and cons of the changes I would like to see (and others really don't want to see), derailing the thread. So I will try to stop perpetuating that topic.

Well it's worthwhile to discuss because your concerns and wants are what makes the game development go a certain way.

If people don't want intricacies in reclaim capability (one person's ability to use hot keys, move commands, etc to efficiently grab reclaim without 'breaking') then it greatly affects a lot of things.

In its defense, though, I must tell you that it probably is a lot easier than you think. I got some training from people on how to properly so this; it changed everything for me.

Chances are you haven't pursued advanced hot keys, methods, etc. This is of course an assumption, but most people I talk to about it give me the response "oh, I didn't know about that..."

My problem with your request and support of easier reclaim is that there is some naive thinking going on. People far too often share onions and "facts" with a lack of knowledge for me to take it seriously.

Given that, have you watched speed2 reclaim tutorial or all for training?

It may be a bit dated in some aspects but highly recommended watch: https://youtu.be/_uPjOxCTEng

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Thank you for your concerns.

Some explanations on my experiences with the SupCom mechanics:

Spoiler: show

There are some things I tried but failed fairly often. Take Williamson's for example. It is a map where every unit early on counts, so I tried to improve my early build. To save a pgen, I tried manual reclaim of tree groups. The problem is threefold:

There are some trees which do not come in groups. You simply have to memorise this. There is no visual indication as to when this is the case.

If you want to reclaim those groups efficiently, you need to do it manually. This opens up a new set of problems.
There is no indication how big the tree group is and where it's centre is. Sometimes a move command will break the group because a tree standing a mile away belongs to it, making the engie waste valuable travel time on just a single tree.

Queuing up the move and reclaim orders, switching hotkeys every time is not something I really enjoy. If you use the button for reclaim or move, you give the command by left clicking while I am used to reclaim bigger rocks by right clicking. So after managing to change from move to reclaim fast enough and give a couple of commands (not messing up already), I then manage to screw up not knowing if my reclaim is still active. This is especially problematic if the mouse is still hovering over the last tree group, showing the reclaim icon either way. But if you now left click to deselect the unit, you give a reclaim command deleting the queue.

Attackmove behaviour is sometimes erratic. Sometimes the engie just won't pick stuff up. On other times, when I make a mistake because I didn't prepare for mass and overflow, all those commands are lost and the engie will start mowing down trees. Usually it's "go there and reclaim on the way" but sometimes it's "go there and reclaim after you arrive".

Why can't I just reclaim the tree groups by just right clicking them? It's not like I didn't understand why I have to, it's not like I wouldn't have to pay time and focus doing it. To me it just seems needlessly complicated and frustrating the way it is.

[keyser]

There are some trees which do not come in groups. You simply have to memorise this. There is no visual indication as to when this is the case.

it's fairly easy to recognize a tree group from a not tree group by recognizing when you cursor turn into a cursor to issue reclaim order, or when the order is moved a little bit from where you gave it.
You can even recognize the tree groups zoom out by setting your ctrl-shift to show reclaim at 10 minimum (does show up tree groups)

Spoiler: show

On a side note, as you are 1000 rated player, i advice you to focus less on reclaim issue like this, and learn managing your eco in a better way. Like not power stalling (seeing the power stall coming), not wasting mass (seeing the sudden mass incoming), having a better map awareness, predicting your opponent with better scouting, managing your army in a better way (knowing when to split your army to inflict more damage with raid, or to avoid/take the fight), and having some more longer term plan (going T2 land pretty fast, trying some droping tryhard play, skipping T2 land, multi-tasking and setting your opponent on fire with T2 gunships.....)
This will help your improve more easily, when you will learn this, you will then thing about the perfect number of pgen depending of the reclaim nearby your starting points, and how to effectively spend your time between reclaiming (manual reclaim) and the rest.

[ZLO_RD]

i have seen quite a few replays of average players trying to mimic "pro" BO on loki. And they very often reclaim wrong trees...