Duel Gap Must Die

Talk about general things concerning Forged Alliance Forever.

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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby Freedomfighter » 15 Apr 2018, 18:50

JaggedAppliance wrote:There's no such thing as a ladder councillor.


Whatever Tokyto is then. That is all he seems to do and badly.
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby biass » 15 Apr 2018, 19:08

Freedomfighter wrote:people will always tend to go for the least fun option

not everyone finds a 1v1 ranked slogfest for 15 minutes fun, rts as a genre barely survives because of it's casual demographic, games made for esports just don't have the players.

bigcrap757 wrote:Well, I wont anymore but the problem is a large chunk of the games being hosted use this map, so it limits the my options.


you can host your own games, it's not hard
people not joining games because they're not on x maps is a myth, learn to host well and you can have people join whatever the hell you choose
hosting a lobby named "not gap" will not get you players
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby uzurpator » 16 Apr 2018, 15:23

_If_ this is a problem, it might be a advisable to determine why people play Gap/Seton/Thermo and essentially any choke point maps. I think it is mostly the predictable nature of the game there. Getting stomped at minute 7 by a pair of smurfs is not fun and on those maps that simply can't happen.

Thermo, on the other hand, I can play with eyes closed, even as the front. Likewise gap of every variety. I mean. I'm not the 'le ebin player' but mostly I am not the most useless one either.

I would like to play anything but, every time in a while, but there are very few sub-1000 games which are not of the choke-point variety. Possibly due to catch-22 issue. There are very few such games, thus when you host it, nobody joins, thus there are no such games.

The biggest cancer, when it comes to those maps, is the fact that the result is pretty much a coin toss in non-stacked games and they eternally lock someone within a given rank range. That is because failing at a role a map casts on the player usually dooms the entire team and there is always someone who plays sim-city.
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby moonbearonmeth » 16 Apr 2018, 16:01

uzurpator wrote:Getting stomped at minute 7 by a pair of smurfs is not fun and on those maps that simply can't happen.

It can totally happen.
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby Farmsletje » 16 Apr 2018, 16:44

biass wrote:not everyone finds a 1v1 ranked slogfest for 15 minutes fun, rts as a genre barely survives because of it's casual demographic, games made for esports just don't have the players.

S t a r c r a f t
FtXCommando wrote:
need to give him some time to blossom into an aids flower
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby uzurpator » 16 Apr 2018, 16:53

moonbearonmeth wrote:
uzurpator wrote:Getting stomped at minute 7 by a pair of smurfs is not fun and on those maps that simply can't happen.

It can totally happen.


If the mid guy on either map is half decent, not really. On thermo/crater the only real threat is pushy sera gun com or a push of the entire team. On dual gap the distance itsself makes it near impossible. There is some crazy 2300 rated russian guy who joins DGap games and even he could not pull that off.

Unless you are dealing with massive skill difference between both teams.

I mean - my 700 rated arse has managed to cock-block two 1000s on thermo in the mid, because that map is so broken. In normal game that could not happen.
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby Plasma_Wolf » 16 Apr 2018, 17:11

All of the problems with high rated people stomping others into the ground can be fixed with a simple thing called team balance. This has nothing to do with the map. A player who's good at dual gap will still win against a team that has no player good at dual gap.

For new players, or lower rated players, hosting all welcome games, or Rating < X games is a good solution.

There are plenty of maps with shorter choke points, or with multiple choke points that still allow different paths. Try hosting a game on Syrtis. That is a map with choke points, but far more interaction than Dual Gap or The Pass. People will join on that map. If you can't find enough lower rated people who will play the map with you, let higher rated people in and ask for advice (build orders, factory placement, tell them to help you judge whether you should attack/not attack or build units/get mex upgrades).

Then you'll quickly be able to join casual Non-Gap games where people actively do stuff, and get in slightly higher rated games while not being forced to play competitively.
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby uzurpator » 16 Apr 2018, 17:37

@plasma_wolf
That does not happen.

First of all - hosting, say, Wonder rated below 1000 yields an intense lobby sim. Those games never fill. Seriously, I tried. I often watch Heaven's streams and his games, with its 1200+ limt fill _faster_ then those mid-level non-Gap things. I have bever seen a Wonder, Syrtis or Palms with all people below 1000.

Secondly - all the rating below/above limitations achieve is stratifying the community. There are 1200+ games, gap/crater/setons games and thermo with very little movement between those.

Thirdly - team balance is hit and miss. An extreme example: just a few days ago I played a gap game. I was doing second navy. Slightly late, but overall I was doing fine. At minute 32 our south air player still had T2 mexes and was struggling to build anything. I am rated 700. He was rated 600. It is quite common for people with 1000+ rank to game like a blithering retard on dgap and 500 people to be aggresive AF. That is because, at least on that particular map, its volatile nature makes it hard to gain rank. I've been hovering between 700 and 800 for months now, yet my skill did improve significantly.

By the way. We lost because of that 600 guy.
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby FtXCommando » 16 Apr 2018, 19:27

I got to 1100 in gap in like 100 or so games. Then I stagnated there for another 900 games because "the loss was something I couldn't prevent." I put those in quotes because looking back, there was definitely room for me to improve and carry the game. For example, I was doing t3 air rushes without making RAS in 2013 balance. I stopped playing for 2 years because it was annoying as shit to play a 40 minute game and lose because some dude on your team cant make t3 mexes. I came back and had zero problems filling 1k+ games on maps like wonder, hilly, syrtis and farming those to 1600 in another 300 games or so.

Like honestly what is the big deal with higher rating playing in your 700+ lobbies or whatever you want to host. It gives you a chance to see how you compare to them in real time and shows you possible ways to improve. If it's like one of those retarded """1900""" players that only plays lobbies where they are the only slightly decent player, then just kick them and wait for another 1k rated dude.

To address your points directly:
1) It isn't intense lobby sim. Waiting 30 minutes to play a game is expected, intense lobby sim is when you're leaving a host up, go to class for a few hours, and come back to a 2/4 lobby.

2) This won't be fixed until team matchmaker. You got not like the russian and western community divide, but also the various map divides. You also got clan divides with some clans pretty much giving one another rating through private clan games and never really improving against other players.

3) Doesn't really matter if it's hit or miss at your rating. At 700 if you play like a 1700 you can hard carry any team you get from air slot. You should just focus on improving yourself rather than looking at your team as the reason for the loss. Obviously, you will get many games where the loss is due to your team, but just because they are the reason for the loss doesn't mean that there was nothing you could have done at some point to change the pace of the game. For example, I bet you could have won that dual gap by just ignoring navy and going for a 15 minute nuke rush and killing the enemy team with it.
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Re: Duel Gap Must Die

Postby moonbearonmeth » 17 Apr 2018, 12:27

uzurpator wrote:If the mid guy on either map is half decent, not really.

Nice back-pedal.

uzurpator wrote:On thermo/crater the only real threat is pushy sera gun com or a push of the entire team.

Are these actually the only real threats or the only threats you can think of?

uzurpator wrote:On dual gap the distance itsself makes it near impossible.

Then if the distance is the limiting factor the scale of time must be increased and it will still be a 'relatively' quick victory.

uzurpator wrote:I mean - my 700 rated arse has managed to cock-block two 1000s on thermo in the mid, because that map is so broken. In normal game that could not happen.

And if you pit someone with 700 against two people with 1000 it doesn't mean the latter has 2000, just someone with 1000 and double the resources which he can misspend twice as well.
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