Build 56 changelog

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 09 Jan 2015, 20:59

replay, here.

pip wrote:If new players don't take the time to read the tooltips, and don't use optional features so what? We will not dumb down our features just because people want to play Nomads like UEF


already people dont want to play nomads, I was check the replay vault, and on normal nomad game its only game with my, apofenas, and tora. Thats all people what i know who play nomads. So you cant say that you dont care when people are dump to read somehing. YES THEY ARE. I agree :D, im psychologist, and its definitly true. But you dont change it, people are lazy, and would not do it, rather say OP/crapy nomads and would not play it. And that is what is already happening. If you dont see it, try host a nomads game with title "nomads 1500+" how long time it would take when you consider is time end it and host non-nomads game?

pip wrote:Capacitor is not mandatory to play Nomads, same as Intel boost

"retard its ok that you dont know what it is doing, i was playing nomads with ithilis at least 50time and when Ithilis would not say you now then i would still not understant for what it is good" Tokyto_

You can play also whiteout capacitator or radar boost, of course, but you would have crapy radar, and crapy acu with 93dps.

pip wrote:It's like Aeon chrono dampener, Omni Sensor or Sera resto field

except aeon omny you name all crapy thinks that hope would be seriously buffed - chrono, and reworked on function model -restoration system. Yes it is as restoration system and chronodumper. need to rework. Or also artilery suport - what is as sacri system on aeon - already ussles, but can be good feauture.

Yes have a nomads feauture is nice. it would not make sense have fraction what is identical as other existing fraction. But have it too curios and too different mean ppl would not accept them, and then what would be a point of new fraction when you cant play them?

I was asking in aoelus, why thay dont play nomads, and ppl who would discuse with me on this theme say that are too alien, and looks like from different game. Most of my argument and thinks that im you all time saying its from something else as my. How i say up, ppl are lazy and dont post nothing on forum, when i would not say Sako to post him feeling and note from game what was he saying to me he would not do that. Nearly noone its doing that. Try more ask ppl in loby how thay imagine to 5th fraction looks like, how thay dont like on them, why thay would start play them more often as never.

Take this as a biznis, when you have some perfect product you know what you have and are trying to sell it to most of ppl to make biggest profit. for example some grafic program. you know that your program can make tons of work that competetion program cant, when you learn how to use it. you offer it to market, try to explain how it work, how ppl can make perfect pictures, you sell some pieces to biggest grafic fans who would see how great it is, and how better it is as grafic program that was use before. But you still sell only few piece, because most of ppl are lazy learn how that work, doesnt mater that thay know that is much more better as was using before... in finaly you take a lot of work make it perfect and still your company is going in bankruptcy, because you dont sell enought to pay your bill. Its not only about what you sell but who is your clientele.
And what is your clientele you will know when you ask in aoelus why thay dont play nomads, and what thay dont like plaing against.


______________

-Why i personal have problem with nomads its - take too long to start a game, actualy its nearly imposible. When i would know that host a game and fill it with my rating ppl in normal time i would host all game as nomads.
-Another think is that they are unranked. When would be ranked game would be more competetive, actualy playing nomads for me is more about see how balance of units work in reality as play normal and focus on game.
- What is a quite sneaky but can help on this two thinks on UP, is integration, that would be extremly hard to make from this position, so another is something as integration whiteout integration. -> remove red note "nomads" on hosted game, add nomads to ranking system. and game with units restriction "no nomads" let ranked + dont allow pick nomad with this restriction. Maybe it only make ppl angry that are confusing whith game is that they dont want to play, but after talk in game it would be posible easy change nomads game for standard. And ppl would know that nomads are in most of all fine.
-Then i dont like excuse on system, some excuse are neccesery, but when are not neccesery i like clever and clear system. In nomads i see as excuse (capacitator, dps, overchage, bombard mode) have problem with some other but that are not my ideas.

lots of text, and tons of gramatic and lingvistic mistake, sory for them, im also too lazy to try correct them :)
Have a nice evevning.
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Brute51 » 09 Jan 2015, 21:44

Integration is the end goal but it is definately not going to happen any time soon (if at all). First the mod will have to be finished (textures, sounds, other artwork). When we're that far it's time to do a PR stunt: I guess some awesome short movies and several tournaments with real prizes. If Nomads gains some traction it is time to bring up the integration to FAF.

Meanwhile I am moving forward with pushing code from Nomads into FAF. Nomads contains several improvements of FAF code and having Nomads code in FAF makes eventual integration a lot easier.
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby pip » 09 Jan 2015, 21:58

About the Crawler replay :
The orange player attacked a Crawler + Beamer + more than 10 t3 tanks = 45000 mass with a single, unescorted Monkeylord (19k mass) and should win? While his 7 t3 bombers were sleeping in the corner of the map and would have in a single pass dropped Crawler HP to half and made it easy for Monkeylord to finish it off? No, the outcome was normal. 2 exps against one just win (except if 2 Beamers).

Then Ythotha alone was sent against Crawler + Fatboy. Even Fatboy alone, can kill it one on one if it kites, so yes, Crawler is very good support experimentals, but if you use 2 experimentals against 1, the result will always be the same, wether it's Crawler + Fatboy or 2 Fatboys, or 2 GC against a single Yhtota. Give me replays where 2 experimentals are used at the same time to counter Crawler + another experimental, then we can see how balance is.
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 09 Jan 2015, 22:34

About the crawler emp:
But on that time it was only crawler with beamer against ML on short range. Tanks dont join on that battle, they come when ML die. So yes it was cheap ML against 2 exp, but first one have only 50% dps and 66% hp, and another one is supost to be weak on close range, and do very small dmg to ml, it was more about ML cant fire and die on beamer cheap beamer.

yotha was going against army and fateboy, but not against crawler and fateboy. Problem is that on most played map 10x10 crawler have range everywhere, and then every experimental is going also against crawler.
Yes it is 2 exp against one exp. but what is problematic is that crawler can be safe in base and suport every others experimental/army and when dont see threat then bombard enemy position. Other must risk a exp/army lose when crawler only sit in base.

And for example 2fatboy vs spider/gc on close range spider/gc win. crawler is something betwen scatis - for base bombard, and fatoy, for army bombard. I dont know if this is bad at all, but was plaing this game, and everyone in game except sako say that stun experimental is OP.
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby pip » 10 Jan 2015, 00:17

Crawler has only 10 more range than Fatboy with its EMP missiles that deal 240 DPS against experimentals, 480 DPS against other units. Fatboy has 1500-3000 DPS depending on the number of cannons shooting. If you think Crawler is op on 10x10 map because it can shoot everywhere, Fatboys are much more OP because it deals 10 times more damage and can shoot pretty much as far while moving.

If you turn Crawler into Bombard mode with AOE missiles, it is useless against experimentals (stun it for 0.1 sec every 12 seconds, and deal like 1000 damages max every 12 seconds) and only useful against armies and bases, but it cannot move, can be easily sniped by t3 air and TML, and unlike Fatboy, it can be countered in bases by TMD.

People cry OP because they have no idea about the Nomads features and how much units count or that the missiles can be countered. They think Crawler killed Monkeylord, but it's Beamer which did it. And they don't do the math of 36 k mass against 19 k. You should be the one to tell them they are wrong because you know the faction better than they do. I shouldn't even have to argue with you.
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 10 Jan 2015, 18:37

Actual unit database will help a lot.

Brute what you think about "sneaky" unnamed version of mod?
whiteout red name, ranked and with easy possibility to change nomads mod for standard game with "no nomads unit restriction" ?
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Brute51 » 11 Jan 2015, 15:35

I"m not sure that is a good idea. People might get upset and that can give Nomads a bad name (or worse name). If we're going to do integration I think we'll try the official way first. It'll probably run on a beta server first to be tested (didn't Visionik mention a beta server some time ago to test balance changes on?). After that I guess it'll be non-ranked and campaign missions. I expect ranked to be the last step.

But before any of this can happen I need to finish the textured, other visuals and sounds. That way I can render some cool movies (that'll attract attention) and some tournaments (more attention). The beta server may come after this.

Come to think about it, we're gonna need someone to do PR...
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Resin_Smoker » 11 Jan 2015, 17:38

Question: is it possible that the T3 blackhole arty and the T1 orbital bombardment arty would return to the Nomads?

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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Brute51 » 11 Jan 2015, 21:51

Sorry, I don't think that will happen. Maybe only in the form of a minimod that restores Nomads to what it was many years ago. I once planned to include such a mod but these days I'm not sure I will.

[I"m not about to start another discussion about "the old Nomads", so if the following results in such a discussion I'll lock this thread.]
Reason for removal of several original mod units was two fold:
1. Nomads backstory went from superior tech (compared to UEF, Aeon, Cybran and Seraphim) to inferior tech. This means, among other things, no quantum gateways, no teleporting, initially no shielding and worse intel overall. It also means no hundreds of space ships but just one tiny and fast one that transports the ACU to a planet, and several bigger but much slower ships (one day I hope to explain this through video). So: exit blackhole arty, T1 orbital arty, shield drone (sorry about that, i know this was your baby), degradation field (or what was that ACU enhancement called?) and several other seemingly overteched units. Some ideas from the old mod were retained but in a different shape (blackholes for example, rocket artillery, probably some more).
2. The T1 arty was a really weird unit. You couldn't see where the artillery shots came from as you can with other factions T1 arty units (clear black or white trail). Next to the "small fleet" backstory this was another a big reason to change/remove it. (And the model was just butt ugly but that could have been fixed.)
3. Many of the original units were very hard to balance. The blackhole arty is such a unit, being able to utterly destroy units with 1 shot regardless of their strength was just not balancable. The same for the chain-lightning-SAM, the 12 missile MML, etc.
[4. Additionally, some stuff just didn't work. I think the nuke had a bug that I never bothered to fix (see point 1 and 2). The flamethrower T3 bot caused severe emitter spawning, having more than 2 firing removed all fx in game. And it only damaged the first unit it hits (unlike a true flame thrower). The T3 bomber could crash the game if you had 10+ bombing at the same time.]
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Re: Build 56 changelog

Postby Resin_Smoker » 12 Jan 2015, 00:03

Well the T1 arty was awesome just for the reason it's point of origin could not be seen without Intel of the arty firing it.

Now as for the blackhole weapon... it can be balanced if structured correctly. Remember I reworked whole thing and added filters and limitations to prevent it from obliterating everything. The seraphim in 4DC currently use it win their T3 bomber and arty.

I can shoot ya the specifics via PM if you'd like to see the details.

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