Build 52 balance changelog

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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Build 52 balance changelog

Postby pip » 14 Oct 2014, 08:25

Build 52 balance changelog:

Air:
- T1 Gunship : DPS = 40 (from 35)

Naval:
- T3 tactical sub: missile salvo delay reduced to 0.7 (from 0.8) = buff against TMD.

Land:
- T1 light tank : same DPS, slightly longer reload
- EMP tank : firing randomness = 0.4 (from 0.5)
- MML : AOE = 1.75 (from 1.5)
- T2 heavy tank : size slightly increased back

- Nova role changed to raiding unit : 3500 HP (from 2750), speed = 3.7 (from 2), range = 26 and 22 (from 40 and 25), DPS = 200 (from 266). Now provides artillery support.
- T3 artillery : cost = 960 mass (from 800), 9600 energy (from 8000) ; 1800 HP (from 800), damage = 600 (from 850), reload time = 7.5 sec (from 11.1), DPS = 80 (from 76) ; unpack animation much faster (similar with UEF t3 mobile arty).
- Slugger : each shot = 850 damages (from 600) = 404 DPS (from 300) weapon changed to plasma cannons, HP = 7200 (from 8200), range = 32 (from 30), speed = 2.2 (from 2.4)

ACU:
Power Armor : + 20000 HP (from 25000) ; 250000 energy (from 240000), 2500 buildtime (from 2400).

SCU :
- TurnRate = 90 (from 150), this will help Rocket launchers to keep facing their targets more easily when microed (it's still not good to move the unit left and right constantly, better to move forward / back)
- Default left gun : DPS = 225 (from 250), Capacitor DPS = 350 (from 400), (with gun upgrade DPS are doubled)
- Capacitor AOE for default gun increased to 2 (from 1.25)
- Rocket launcher firing tolerance = 1 (from 2), mass cost = 900 (from 850)
- Railgun : mass cost = 2350 (from 2200)
- Additional capacitor : mass cost = 450 (from 500)
- Rapid Repair : mass cost = 1000 (from 800), buildtime = 4200 (from 4000) : provides 6000 HP (from 4000), repair rate reduced to same as ACU = 70 (from 100) (N.B. : this repair rate + natural regen rate are doubled when capacitor is activated).
- Power Armor : provides 22000 HP (from 24000), mass cost = 2500 (from 3000)
- Resource generator : buildtime = 3600 (from 3000), energy cost )= 45000 (from 43500)

SCU Presets:
- Trooper and Fast Combat presets removed
- Gunslinger preset gets an additional capacitor
- Rocket launcher preset gets speed upgrade
- Producer presets gets right engineering arm

T4:
Crawler rework
- HP = 40k (from 42 k), mass cost = 18k (from 24 k) ;
- Main Missiles changed to Homing EMP missiles : now Stun normal units for 4 seconds (including Battleships), less effective against Experimentals (stun for 0.2 seconds), reload time decreased to 10 seconds, damages reduced to 400 (from 500) + 100 damages to shields = 480 DPS / 600 against shields (from 500), / bombard EMP missiles = 800 DPS (from 2000) / 1000 against shields, EMP missiles are less efficient against Experimentals with Experimental armor (= only half damages on Land Experimentals), missiles are a bit slower and now explode sooner if they don't hit target or ground.
- Longer range tactical missiles damage = 1000 (from 800), reload = 12 seconds (from 10), delay between each missile reduced (= buff), AOE = 3 (from 1.5).
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 14 Oct 2014, 20:10

how to start...

Pip. omg! Its total frustating make anything when you principily make it in different way, every time. You recognise that what i write you that is wrong, is wrong but every time you make different solution like i suggest. and then after XY change you change it cca on my sugesstion why you do that? You look like are scared that it decision would not be yours. what is problem? Then why you all time rebalance everything for save you ego for know that you are author of that change it doesnt mater, when it work.

pffffffffffffff
_________________________

T1 gunship - it is wrong! This was in balance note 47. and it was wrong and was changed for some reason, now you take it on previous number what yourself change in past, because it was wrong and not working well. You understand that change only price and litle bit hp buff dont solve problem - you recognise that im right, but change it not in my way but on other way. why?! It is stupid...
lock with 40 dps and 400 hp take it on calculator:

525:40=13,125
400:53=7,5

that mean jester is cca 43% more effective only by surviability vs dmg, but have 30% bigger range/manevrability/effectivnes from static AA and most important titmous is weaker brother of jester what dont must be. Why instead of same 12,5% buff on dps you dont buff hp, what is much more important in nomads army who have good AA in land mix? with 16% speed nerf what buy again hp buff for 12,5% on +100hp it would be different use on titmous. much more usseful like on +12,5% dps.

- NOVA + slugger- we spend 2 mount of balancing and testing of NOVAS units with EMP tanks and other stuff. And it work well. and you remove whole work for no reason.. this will not working. this change rape balance of whole T3 make beamer absoluthly ussles units, and whole nomads army would be only about slugger.
Nova with this price and number is ussles. compare it only with loayalist/titan who are for raiding. nova win with very few hp but cost 50% more. it is unbalance as hell. and it is absolutely pointless. you dont must do that. this is wrong change.

SLUGGER - again you make same change as i suggest but in different way, why you do that? DPS is not what that tank need. It is not funny have whole army only about one tank, especially who dont win any mass to mass battle + with hight DPS unit rise problem when against sluger with EMP tank dont lineup artilery+ sniper. then EMP tank stun and high dps tank easyli rape other T3 and ppl would cry about OP nomads. or nomads would cry about trash nomads when sniper + artilery lineup.
PS: it have double gun, but fire one shot, instead of two like pilar, brute, rhino, everithing what have more guns second gun lock pointles when it fire only from one canon.

instead of well balanced units set and bringing one new units you rebalance whole end game, when it can have more easy solution.

- why you are rejecting take artillery support to scout/spy plane?
PS: artilery suport need buff, 300% is not enought when you must pay high cost of units with this ability, especiali T2 mml have problem damaging turets whitout artilery suport (what is correct because it is beast against T1 from this unacurance) but when want to deal with turet 300% for price of x destroing gunship/scouts is not enought.

T3 mobile artilery - thanks you. you will see in future that this change was necessary
_____________

Sory for my bad moods but try be empathic when all time you recognise that my showing problem is corect but you all time make as deliberately different solution.
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby pip » 14 Oct 2014, 21:16

Ithilis_Quo, I don't use your exact changes because you usually have only partial view of what you are talking about. You see only half of the picture, not the full picture.

T1 gunship : the difference between build 47 and the current one is that at that time, the unit suffered from very bad accuracy problems. Now it has perfect accuracy, so it's 40 true DPS, before, it had to wait around 3 seconds to start hitting anything. And for your information, the Nomads will never ever have a unit with lot of HP because it's against their design. I only accepted higher hp for t2 gunship because it is more expensive, and still low HP compared to mass cost. The t1 gunship is not supposed to be equal nor better than Jester, it is intended to be weaker, but cheaper. This is intentional, I don't want it to be equal mass for mass. If it's still too weak, I will tweak mass cost again, until perfect balance, but not HP.

Nova : in case you haven't noticed, the Nova can avoid shots when microed, exactly like aurora. That's why it has less armor than Loyalist : if you micro, you win very easily, if you don't micro, you lose. The Nova higher price is justified by the hover ability, and artillery support. The Nova problem is about being too strong compared to naval units high cost. If it's weaker than other comparable land units, this is not a problem anymore because there is another land unit. It's normal that amphibious unit is weaker, the same way Riptide is much weaker than Obsidian. You will make Nova when you need a powerful and fast raiding unit and for amphibious ability, like Riptide, but also a few ones to make your artilleries more accurate.

Slugger : the balance is now typically Nomad style = low HP but high DPS. It is a very strong unit, even if you don't realize it for now. You say Beamer is useless? What the heck, Beamer precisely adds more HP to your army than with a high HP Slugger and you complained before precisely about Beamer being useless with high HP sluggers... If you have Sluggers with not too many HP in front line, + EMP tanks and Beamer just behind, this is perfect combination to win battles. If enemy tries to focus on Beamer, Sluggers will decimate the enemy army, if they concentrate on Sluggers, Beamer will turn the battle in your favor.
As for the two cannons shooting alternatively, it is to prevent one of the shot to miss the target and losing half DPS. In order for the two shots to hit all the time all units, we would have to make the Slugger, very, very small, which is ridiculous for a t3 unit.


Artillery support is a free ability, it gives already a significant boost to accuracy. We don't want to give it to too many units, especially not super fast units. It is linked with vision radius, not radar radius, giving it to super fast spy plane which mostly uses radar is not what the design is made for. Otherwise, it would be given only on scout and spy plane, nothing else.
If you want your MML to be very accurate, first, use anchor ability = accuracy boost, and then use a arty support unit. They will then be accurate enough to deal with t2 PD. Don't forget Nomads ACU has very strong upgrade, very precise = Orbital bombardments, very good at taking down PD walls, especially if TMD are busy shooting down MML missiles.

Please test against real people, not out of your impressions. And it's precisely because I saw your replay and how difficult it was to micro three different units (EMP tanks, Sluggers, Nova) that I decided to simplify Nomads t3 gameplay with a more traditional repartition for roles (fast unit, slow powerful unit). Although as at t2, their artillery is very strong now.
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 15 Oct 2014, 02:41

T1 gunship - 525>500 and also 53>35, i understand that nomad design is about powerfull units with low armor i dont forget on this premise. But with comparing with bomber im afraid that it would not be a relevant choice, when in low speed and dps and more hp it would be different choice for different use. and 500 hp is still not super high number, on gunship is surviability much more prized quality as dps. on bomber it is vice verse. because bomber is for shock and flying out from danger gunship is for being annoying and slowly push on post where stay.

BEAMER - then why you would build beamer when you use him in front of your army? im not exactly sure what is price, but think it is about 13 000 mass or something like that. when it is 13K that mean you can build for that price cca 13 sluger = 7200x13 + 404x13dps => 93600 hp and 5252 dps units what dont die when lose 1/3 of hp because it is not only one units. Building sluggers would be at least 2,5x more effective as build beamer = building beamer whiteout comet is critical mistake what is same as autodestruct half of your sluger army what you cant build because u build beamer.

-When you dont want to change nova and sluger for more friendly units, (what you probably dont want, and i dont chage it) then beamer need serious buff what make him more survivable and give him some advantage as building same mass amount of slugger.
at least +10/15 range more (more safe is less as more) and stun on location where fire + on some aoe(3?) around (as have cybran EMP sacu) then would be chance that beamer dont must be waste of not builded slugger.

NOVA - avoiding shot can make loayalist too (but harder) it is faster units, with strong EMP with more dps and hp on mass. Now would be nova compared with loayalist and titan where hard lose in past as T3 aurora was nova specific units for nomad army, what was well balanced with another. Nova have hover ability what is prized, but this price is too high. As you pointed on riplide vs obsidian obsidian have 25% more dps as riplide and 38% more hp. bud riplide is 30%faster units, with high roof = much less overkill, with hoover and with less price (on obsidian cost is + 37,5mass for permanent -10 energy consumption) Obsidian is stronger (its strongest) land units as riplide but it is not so radical difference as new raiding nova vs loayalist.
loayalist with same price as nova would have 4650hp and 285dps. it is rape. That would mean nova would be use on land only in very rare situation and slugger start be dominant tank. Dont have idea and tested how this change reflect on naval balance. probably it would be fine, but it need test.

SLUGGER projectil animation - what about 2 projectil and 0,1 aoe for not miss half dps? I personaly dont see this plasma beam as atractive on this tank. it is minor and not important issue. but on me it lock weird for have beam/plasma weapon on this kind of units on nomads unit set with "low technology" for me it is predestined to be simply projectil weapon. when litle bit closer canon to each others then tank can fire virtual linked double shot, what can act as single shot but lock as double. but i dont care so much about graffic side.

ARTILERY SUPORT - when artilery suport would be only on scout(+land scout) and spy plane it would be perfect!. it make sense that it is on this and only on this units, gunship dont need it. it is too expensive for this use, and on tanks when is on visual range mostly dont operate with artilery, because then fight change from statit to dynamic action and from that time artillery fire maybe once. take it only on scout/spy plane (only visual range not radar) and i send you a flower! :mrgreen:
______________________

Ok impresion aside, I will test it whiteout bias.


_ _ _
+ i have compromise for capacitator and overcharge. its not ideal solution but hope that acceptable for you. but at first i test this stuff and more consider about compromise solution.
Last edited by Ithilis_Quo on 15 Oct 2014, 20:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby pip » 15 Oct 2014, 06:50

How about you compare other factions with Nomads? How about you compare almost 3 bombers to 1 Jester. What is better to have ? 3 bombers for sure, or 2 bombers + 1 intie.
How about you compare 15 Bricks = 135 000 HP and 5625 DPS, 35 range, to Monkeylord 45 000 HP 4400 DPS and 30 range. Tell me you never see Monkeylord in FA and that the super fast buildtime is not a very good reason to build one. Beamer is like a mini Monkeylord, that is very cheap and thus accesible very early (12 k mass) with slightly more range and no secondary ability, except it can shoot from transport. Even if you build one only to shoot from Comet, or to move underwater to an enemy island, that's fine, it has a purpose compared to Sluggers. But since you can build it much faster than 11 Sluggers, if you send it with a few sluggers, it will have more impact on the battlefield than Sluggers you didn't have time to build yet, exactly like it is done with Monkeylord.

As I said, you always see one side of the picture, and forget to look more closely at how other factions are balanced.
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 15 Oct 2014, 10:52

ask apofenas how many beamer he build and why.
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby Apofenas » 15 Oct 2014, 12:10

I build beamer per t4 transport.
When we had ZeP's ladder system I played more 1v1s on only Winter duel, than I play actual games in current trash they call ladder. Makes me so sad.
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby Apofenas » 15 Oct 2014, 12:30

What is nova speed on water?
When we had ZeP's ladder system I played more 1v1s on only Winter duel, than I play actual games in current trash they call ladder. Makes me so sad.
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 15 Oct 2014, 14:05

nova need buff, hard lose against titan even harder against loayalist.

slugger do nothing against microed perci/brick and win against unmicroed. EMP tanks help him, but still whitout change.

beamer is ussles. destroy only 14% off him mass cost.
spieder kill 36% mass cost + have stealth what is big help against PDs
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Re: Build 52 balance changelog

Postby Brute51 » 15 Oct 2014, 21:13

Good that you guys talk about balance. Looks like a pretty hefty discussion is going on but that is good if it stays civil; it will only improve the mod.

The artillery support ability can be a CPU intensive because it does several unit look ups. This means the game is going through all units in the game and finding the ones that have the ability and are in range, each time an artillery shot is fired. Because the ability is (probably) heavier than most abilities is why I don't want many units to have it. Initially I put it on gunships only cause they usually die fast.
(Yes I know you don't experience hiccups when artillery fires. It is nicely camouflaged in the game. Slower computers can experience hiccups.)
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