Build 51 balance changelog

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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Build 51 balance changelog

Postby pip » 29 Sep 2014, 09:03

Build 51 balance changelog

General :
Bombard mode rate of fire nerf = 50% faster (instead of 66%) : for all units with that alternative mode = EMP tank, Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer, Bullfrog

Land:
- ACU Overcharge reload time = 4 seconds (from 5), AOE during capacitor activation increased to 2.5 (from 2)
- T2 Tanks : size reduced to prevent one of the bullet to miss targets
- T3 Mobile AA : size reduced ; 1800 HP (from 2200), cost = 640 mass (from 540), DPS = 250 (from 180) but still no AOE
- T3 Nova Heavy Hover Tank : 640 mass (from 840), 2750 HP (from 3500), long range gun damage = 1000 (from 1200), secondary weapon DPS = 100 (from 160) ; size reduced.
- T3 Slugger = new Armored Assault Tank: 1060 mass, 8200 HP, 300 DPS, 2.4 speed, range = 30. Cannot go in or above water.
- T4 Bullfrog adjustments for close range fights : rear canon minimal range = 8 (from 15), muzzle velocity = 50 (from 45), pitch range = 7 (from 30); DPS balanced between the two main weapons : 1500 for each (instead of 1400 for long range and 1800 for close range).

SCU changes:
- Energy Rocket Launcher preset replaced by amphibious preset (railgun + machine gun + speed)
- Resource Generator : energy output = 300 (from 400)
- Rocket launchers : muzzle velocity = 18 (from 16)
- Additional capacitor mass cost = 500 (from 600); buildtime = 1450 (from 2700), energy cost = 21 450 (from 29300)
- Railgun : mass cost = 2200 (from 2000), buildtime = 4800 (from 4200), energy cost = 37500 (from 46 000)

Air:
T1 Gunship : HP = 400 (from 350), mass cost = 150 (from 135)
T2 Gunship : 1000 HP (from 860) ; flare reload increased to 6 seconds (from 5).

Structures:
Shields and stealth shields changes:
- T2 Shield : HP = 8000 (from 10 000) and size = 27 (from 20)
- T2 Stealth Shield : stealth radius = 16 (from 10) (cost remains the same = 150 mass), energy consumption (shield + stealth) = 275 (from 250). The true stealthed area is the shield dome (not the brown circle)
- T3 Shield : HP = 16 000 (from 17 000) and size = 42 (from 30), mass cost = 2800 (from 2000), energy consumption = 450 (from 400)
- T3 stealth Shield : stealth radius = 28 (from 20), energy consumption (shield + stealth) = 600 (from 500)

- T3 SAM: 5 projectiles instead of 8, same DPS.
- SACU FActory costs reverted to same as Quantum Gateways
- T3 heavy artillery : rate of fire = 0.08 (from 0.086) DPS = 600 (from 646)
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby Apofenas » 29 Sep 2014, 11:57

Awesome start animation!

Though now when nomads have good t3 tank, SCUs presets should be decently reworked.

In my opinion, all pre-sets without hands should get removed. "They look weird" - I heared that from everybody who saw these bots, so that's 1st reason. The 2d reason is they are underused: trooper and gunslinger is inefficient way to spend mass compare to new tank; the fast combat preset seems to be very costly thing to use it for raids, so i never used it at all.

The producer preset is overused actually - it's too effective way to get SCU with engineer capability and RAS and also can be done with discount from mex/fabs. So i suggest to put second engineering upgrade in this preset.

The heavy trooper preset has way low HP/mass. It's very risky to build this unit cause it dies too easily and there is no mobile shields to protect it. It's high DPS simply doesn't worth it(the reason combatant presets never built in main game mode). May be you can sacrifice some regen from rapid repair for some HP?

Rocket launcher preset should get speed upgrade in it. This combination recommended itself as t3 range bots. Though there is issue with shooting while changing direction - the body doesn't track target, so missles go elswhere.

The next suggestion goes to all SCUs that don't have engineer upgrades in them. They should be able to build same structures as field engineers do. At least this will explain them being able to reclaim, repare and assist with building.
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby pip » 29 Sep 2014, 17:48

Yes, SCU will be reworked now that there is a armored t3 tank, and some presets will be removed because useless now.

As for SCU without engineering upgrade, they are like Harbingers = able to repair and reclaim but not build. They are not field engineers, unless equipped with engineering capabilities.
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 30 Sep 2014, 19:05

i test it, but from first look it loks nice
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 30 Sep 2014, 22:32

Ok fist 3 testing is done. Aaaaaaaaand:

ok ok - At first, path is nice, its very good steep to good side, and in any way dont take my critic personal i like you guys :). (And i dont know how to say it in english in freindly way as it know Brute. ) It is my opinion what can be nearest of utopia, but still perfect.
____________________________________________________

- start acu launch animation is awesome! Imho whiteout rotate and re-jump of cabins it would be better, it can jest explode in floor. On my opinion the end (rotate and re-jump) looks cheap. And the nomads logo can be bigger and longer, of maybe permanent on floor, that logo is awesome :)

- bombard mode nerf: it make probably sense, but on ships would be better accuracy with bombard mode like is. its extremly unaccurate with bombard. On EMP it make sence because is mostly against shield, but on ships it can miss really big base with bombard mode. Would be little bit smaller cone too strong?

- overcharge : with apofenas we discus about compromise, give special overcharge on acu but after second gun upgrade, and let them have standard one until dont upgrade on some special nomads upgrade like dual gun definitely is. Im one hundred percent sure that nomads OC is weaker like others OCs doesnt mater with capacitator or whitout. Others OC is better.
But!: change reload time from 5s to 4s is reducing one problem, so it is good move, and thanks for that. The best solution is move it after second gun upgrade (with small buff) and let him standard OC on that time, but still have 2,5aoe (with capacitator) and (standard) 3,3 sec (instead of 4s) would be better.

- T1/2 gunship: I like to see this changes.

- Stealth/shiled generator - this would be probably technical problem, if not then is not best solution make stealth radius different like is showing building stealth cyrcle. especialy on stealth where is circle only thinks what tell you where your units are on stealth. People then would have problem with unstealth units what can make huge problems and would be reaported as "shitt nomads" "crappy things" "bugged mods i dont play this shit anymore..." and etc. rather dont have stealth circle like with false information. Otherwise change is good.

- i dont test sacus.
______________________________
T3 land change
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Sadly new tank is not name Ithilis when it is so great name for tank! i cant understand :D :mrgreen: (what about name Zepper/Zeper/Zepiler tank - from Ze_Pil0t. I was not like him strange (child) moods but he is and would be legend who make lot of work here, and it can be nice "thanks" when he come out, and little bit of advertisement :))

I test T3 land and found some problems, big problems.

against experimental this tank is not as good as other fraction but work 1000% better like novas. Against other armies it is not as effective as it can be.
Test was on T3 when is build only land factory units (not only T3 units) nomads have serious big problem. I give you replay for check, i dont test all, and not enought time, it can be makes with more skill but in general it would be true.

Against sniper bot fraction nomads lose against sniperbot + shield +artilery. and against other fraction lose against perci/brick wall and artilery +shield.

sludger vs sera siege tank win with cca 500HP vs perci/brick give him cca 50%hp down but cost is 82% slugger is too big and slow(thats corect) for micro perci shot and take it all. in mix armi it work better, but still lose, and most important lose against artilery or sniper bots, because novas and EMP tanks have no enough HP.

what is in must be category is give nomads mobile artilery rapidli more HP cca 1600-2000HP. Whiteout it they lose artillery fight easily (no shield/stealth) and then sniper/artilery smash them out.

then novas probably cant lose so many HP. when it want to be lower, because lower price (i support lower price), then lower litle bit dps not HP. Already lose 25% price 22%hp and 27%dps it is corect number but now is nova probably too weak, it have same cost as sniper, it have cca2x more dps same aoe and much more hp but probably less surviability because when sniper is out of combat and dont care about hp novas is not in front but receives dmg from enemy tanks and must care about hp too- but this need more complexe testing. probaly give them jammer ability help a lot

Technical/design think: map icon what have slugger can move to NOVA (is more specific as is slugger) and slugger can have novas/outhum/harb icon
design think No.2: give slugger artilery suport ability.

If would be posible only for my personal testing, can you make mode with slugger parameters same as i write on previous T3 tank topic, and novas like was in past? same texture as is only how it would work, as mode for testing. It is small conflict of ideas how would things work but maybe would work little bit better spaming big number of cheapest and lower units like smaller number of stronger units. And if it is not more like 5 minute of rewriting parameters. would it be nice from you and posible test bout and compare it.
______________

If i would know write in english better i would write post about how nice this path is and in easy going way write what can be more cool like it is. though i dont know write with this style on my level of english so at least write what i would think would be better. but still it is great. seeyou
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 03 Oct 2014, 02:20

i was check my replay again. and recognise one small "bug" that new T3 tank some time what is not so rare miss because beam weapon. This problem can be solved when it would not be laser like is and like nomads lore say that have primitive technology, but rather simply dual canon shot. T1 sniper tank have same 30 range and 300dmg by shot. it can be same projectil but with better accurancy every 2sec and whitout splash. It is same 300dps because double canon. And more nomads style.

but what is main problem that is sluger he is very similar effective as other 840mass tanks but cost more and half effective as 1280mass tanks, so only this tank dont win against perci/brick/outhum/nothing must be in mix, but other mix units have low hp and when die, then nomads army die with them. What is bit problem, because is hard to balance it for so complex army.

probably jammer on some T3 units can help a lot, but still it is not ideal solution. When we recategorise sluger to 1280 category and give him 12000 hp and 300dps, 2,2speed and 3sec rof, would be cca 10% less effective as percival, because range, but have biger surviability
12000:400 = 30 vs 9300:300 = 31

and number would be more optimistic against outhum too. But then this tank (at 1 start be popular) and would be main nomads tank, where novas start be use as are use titans today. problem would be that cheap ex start be ussles too because only 2,5x more hp as T3 tank mean that it is primar object and die imediatly. So it mean rework plenty of thinkg but this version would be better as now. And imho worse as cheap version of T3 tank with plenty of hp.
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby pip » 03 Oct 2014, 10:58

We are aware of the problems you mention, we (foolishly) thought we had solved the beam issue, but it's not the case. Balance for the tanks is not yet final.
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby Apofenas » 03 Oct 2014, 14:27

The beam type of damage is actually bad for these tanks: they have problems with terrain, walls and problems with hitting SCUs.(I experienced that myself)
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 03 Oct 2014, 16:24

That new beam weapon look awesome, i realy like that effect, but think that canon projectil is much more nomads style. But it is big dilemma because that efect is best tank shot ever :D
ps: beam still miss a lot of time only aoe effect, try to solve it.
_____________________________________________________________
Today i focus on T1 gunship. This change would not be good - reason why you change it is because T1 gunship simply dont work well. double bomber is better choice and is no reason for built T1 gunship. This change but dont change it, you give gunship some hp what help but give bigger price what cancel effect of more hp. Effectivity is same so the problem is same.

I give number to calculator and what is most important is surviability : damage + other things like range/speed and etc.

jester vs titmous is 525:35 = 15 (sec to destroy jester by titmous)
vs 400:53=7,5 (to destroy titmous by jester)
So jester is 50% more effective but cost 33% more. + jester have cca 30% bigger range and can fire on air what titmous cant.
Mass cost is low, but on that phase is energy cost similar problem where energy price can be lower for preventing first gunship harass. When you give back more dps it would be same as in past where you change it.

I have idea how this can be solved and make gunship different choice what is comporable with jester and bomber and still for different use.
rename weak Titmous for Golem =>

Golem vs jester 500:53=9,4 (same 62% as 66%mass price)
jester vs Golem 525:35=15

change speed of Golem 12-10

It is masive buff, but only because how is now titmous so bad vs jester on stats. jester have bigger range and is more effective as golem, cost more mass but have bigger range, dmg and better manevrability, surviability and in bigger number cost less energy, its much easier make "snipe" with jesters as with golem because jester have more dps and more surviability as can do golem on short time. + it is half price of T2 gunship with half HP and cca half dps.

Idea of this change is have something what can go with army in air, can be protected from ground with AA/arty and operate as fly army, on battlefield not for haras as jester and not for shock as bomber.
____________________________

Experimental beamer. when is stronger hp tank here, then he cant have so short range, because would be primar focus and would not be any problem kill him very fast. All assault egperimentals have 40 range and more. only ML have 30 on beam but still 440dps on 64 range and most important - stealth. where beamer have only 50% dps and 66% hp. when it would be 40 range then beamer can be on NOVAs level and it can support him weak surviability.

on comet gheto range same small as is now.
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Re: Build 51 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 09 Oct 2014, 19:31

Guys something new? Whats your idea of fixing existing situation ?
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