Build 49 balance changelog

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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Build 49 balance changelog

Postby pip » 07 Jul 2014, 21:32

Build 49 balance changelog:

Land Units:
T1:
t1 sniper tank : mass cost = 66 (from 60), energy and buildtime = 330 (from 300)

T2:
- EMP tank : stun times = 2 secs (t1)/ 1 sec (t2) / 0.5 sec (t3) (from 2.5/1.25/0.625), firingrandomness = 0.5 (from 0)
- Fast Hover tank : veterancy reduced to 5 kills (from 6)
- Mobile Missile Launcher : AOE = 1.5 (from 2)
- Field Engineer : TMD reload time increased to 3.33 seconds (from 3 seconds).

T3:
T3 mobile AA : hp = 2200 (from 2000), cost = 560 mass (from 480), 6600 energy (from 5400), 3200 buildtime (from 2700)

SACU General changes:
Fixed issue with false weapon ranges on manual targets when other weapons than default are used
Default speed increased to 2.4 (from 2.2)
Default death explosion damage = 300 (from 500)
Resource Generator death explosion is same as other SCU explosion = 1000 damages, AOE 10 (it can't be used anymore for kamikaze attacks)

SACU upgrade changes:
engineer arms : 450 mass (from 500), 18500 energy (from 26000)
Gun = 400 damages (from 450) for 250 DPS (from 281), mass cost = 550 (from 400), energy cost = 18500 (from 20150), capacitor DPS = 400.
Gun upgrade = 650 mass (from 700), 28600 energy (from 26950)
Machine gun : mass cost = 700 (from 600), range = 30 (from 25)
Rocket upgrade : mass cost = 850 (from 900), buildtime = 2750 (from 3000)
Power armor = 3000 mass (from 3400)
Locomotor upgrade buildtime cost = 1800 (from 1600), speed after locomotor upgrade = 3.6 (from 3.3)
Resource Generator energy cost = 43500 (from 47000)

SACU presets changes: now they are more clearly ordered in 3 different categories : support units / direct attack / special weapons.
Trooper preset added : just a gun (250 DPS and 12 000 HP), 1050 mass.
Heavy Gunslinger preset changed into "Heavy Trooper" preset : double upgraded weapons + rapid repair.
Fast Combat preset : left gun was removed to make it cheaper (now, just a machine gun and speed upgrade for 1600 mass)

T4:
Beamer : energy cost = 240 000 (from 200 000) to delay a bit early rushes ; 2300 DPS (from 2400).

Air:
t1 air transport:
mass cost = 80 mass (from 120), HP = 400 (from 450); energy = 4800 and buildtime = 800 (same values as the others)

Naval:
Frigate : AA DPS = 17.5 (from 14.5), same as t1 mobile AA

Structures:
T2 artillery : damage radius = 3 (from 4), firingrandomness = 1.2 (from 1) ; rate of fire = 0.08 (from 0.09); costs = 1785 mass (from 2016), buildtime = 1518 (from 1670), energy = 12750 (from 14400)
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 09 Jul 2014, 01:56

pip wrote:- Field Engineer

pls categorise him as military units, same as sparky... If someone want use him in base then can use anchor and have no problem. Now have problem ppl who want to use him on field, when is field enginer.

T1 + T2 well done, T3 mobile artileri need more hp

T1 transport nerf - im not sure if good solution.
builditme raise, ok can understand, but HP/energy nerf too is bad solution, thay already got only 4 units instead of 6/8 and problem with transport is huge energy price and low surviability. Dont get them both. Try imagine it on map as twin river, you got nomad transport on same time as non-nomad (because buildtime and energy cost, mas really isnt problem) but enemy got with 6(/8) enginer, they fly in first class 500HP transport. Nomads passanger must use oar, have 20%less surviability and on place got only 4 = 33-50% less buildpower. When they start build base, in same time, nomad lose and have very low advantage on lower mass cost.

SACU - take out that crazy voice, none instead of brute and maybe you like it, it is terrible :D (and turn it off in setup doesnt work)

Thx for dominator and assasin nerf, theay was need it.

_____

In the next period i would try to force you to remove low overcharge and give them normal one. Brace yourself! :)
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby Apofenas » 09 Jul 2014, 05:53

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
pip wrote:- Field Engineer

pls categorise him as military units, same as sparky... If someone want use him in base then can use anchor and have no problem. Now have problem ppl who want to use him on field, when is field enginer.


Main problem with it is that your base TMD may go out of its position with forces. Also you lose build queues and leave unfinished structures.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:T1 transport nerf - im not sure if good solution.
builditme raise, ok can understand, but HP/energy nerf too is bad solution, thay already got only 4 units instead of 6/8 and problem with transport is huge energy price and low surviability. Dont get them both. Try imagine it on map as twin river, you got nomad transport on same time as non-nomad (because buildtime and energy cost, mas really isnt problem) but enemy got with 6(/8) enginer, they fly in first class 500HP transport. Nomads passanger must use oar, have 20%less surviability and on place got only 4 = 33-50% less buildpower. When they start build base, in same time, nomad lose and have very low advantage on lower mass cost.


The problem was, that nomads were dropping too quickly on islands. Making same power cost as others currently puts nomads from big advantage to big disadvantage.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:In the next period i would try to force you to remove low overcharge and give them normal one. Brace yourself! :)


For what? It's pretty well made overcharge. Has its own weaknesses and strenghts.
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby pip » 09 Jul 2014, 09:25

Yes, the big problem for field engineering being listed as attack units, beside the fact that they can't attack anything, is that they will constantly cancel their order if they are mixed with army units. If you want them to be with your army, just guard some units like EMP tanks.

The Nomads T1 transport has 12 speed, others have 10, that's a huge difference, and a huge advantage. You should compare how long it takes a Nomad transport to reach the very near island of Twin Rivers: you can still beat any other transport to reach an island. Besides, most players don't wait until they have 6 engineers, but 3 or 4. If you wait until you have 6 or 8 engineers to send somewhere, you have time to build a second transport because it takes the same time to build a t1 transport and 3 engineers, and you will have more chances of survivability because 2 fast transports with total hp of 800 are harder to catch and shoot down than a single transport with 500 HP and 10 speed.
But it's even better, on a map like Twin Rivers, to have your T1 transport make 2 times the ride, because it can do it very fast.
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 09 Jul 2014, 11:50

Apofenas wrote:Main problem with it is that your base TMD may go out of its position with forces. Also you lose build queues and leave unfinished structures.


Who is building 50% more expensive untis for build structures in base? it is field enginer, he have litle more buildpower, but not as 50% more mass what he cost and build limitation what he have. For building central base it is waste of mass and oportunity to use him on field. Linked him with some tanks is pretty anoing when that units die, must relink him. Sparky is same category of enginer and is military and none have problem with canceling building que and none is using him as dps units.

pip wrote:2 fast transports with total hp of 800 are harder to catch and shoot down than a single transport with 500 HP and 10 speed.


noone would build 2 fransport, becaue energy cost, then 2 T1 500 hp transport is harder to destroy as 2 nomads. mas realy isnt problem on transport.

Apofenas wrote:For what? It's pretty well made overcharge. Has its own weaknesses and strenghts.


It is total diferent as other, and have any streng. ok only streg is that you can destro shiled on one OC thats all. others you have 60% less aoe, and 66% less dps because realod is 5 sec instead of 3,3sec OC cant be diferent as others acu, thats some undscribe rules, as acu have 100dps (not 93,75) and OC 12 000dmg per 3,3sec let it have fire rainbow animation, but get them normal numbers. I never kill more units with this OC as with normal one, units are not goin on line, firing OC in line is not advantages, but 66% less aoe is huge disatvantage, and 5sec realod is pain,
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby pip » 09 Jul 2014, 13:10

Let me be more clear : overcharge will not change. Nomads ACU has capacitor and Overcharge as powerful attacks. You think AOE is less but it has 10 bullets that will not hit at the same place: minimal AOE is 1.5, but sometimes AOE will be same as 3, and even more in Capacitor mode.

As for Sparkies, yes they have the problem that their orders are cancelled when they are selected like attacking units, I saw it several times. But at least, Sparkies can attack, Nomad Scarab cannot attack, it is not a combat engineer. This will not change either, and I really don't know what good a mobile TMD will do in a front line of battle (it's fast, so it will always be in front and die for nothing), it's better to use the guard ability on attacking units to make sure your TMD will stay behind.

As for Air transport, the energy cost only matters in very early game, after that it's meaningless. As I said, Nomads already have a huge advantage because their transport is super fast, so it will reach anywhere faster, there is no need to make it even better by adding cheaper energy cost and faster buildtime. The competitive players will already think it's OP with 12 speed.
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 09 Jul 2014, 22:25

i have quite long replay:

OC
on with situation can be overcharge 3aoe ? I think it is too complicated, where im not sure how exaktli things work, how can somone who play nomad first know what is going on?
I know it fire 10 bulet, but this advantage is mostly ussles. Most time of game i dont do nothing else only overcharign enemy units :D, so i can judge with OC is better. that 10 bulet help only in very rare situation, where are powerfull units on line but with 66% less aoe and rof wil be bad in all situation. with nomads OC in 90% i kill only one units, and do less dmg to other acu (rof) with normal in 70% i kill couple of units and with energy boost do more dmg to acu, and on teamgame where is somone goint to die, that time diferences is significant.

And most importatnt it is acu. 4 acu have 100dps and 3600dps OC nomad have 93,75 and 2400with oc that is diferent system on primar units, when this wold be on actual unit database shudle i and nomads would be integrate then ppl would asking how is this posible. and we would everyone say.. "it is ok nomads are diferent, when you would play them half year you would know how they function works and all would be fine" Im styll not clear on capacitator function how capacitator work on with upgrade it do how many dmg aoe dmg after time etc... for me is after one year and something playing nomads capacitator only something what i press in fight and believ that it help me.

Scarab
But who is building field enginer to stay in base? Why it have radar when it would be on base? Why it is called field ? 30dps on sparky realy isnt atack, theay do 2x more dmg by reclaiming.
pip wrote: I really don't know what good a mobile TMD will do in a front line of battle
When enemy have acu tml and you force him, against serafin is very easy get 6K headshot by tml, not with scarab in army. Or when win battle and want fast reclaim and go back, them is scarab perfect. Or when woul need intel and dont have time to build air scout, you have radar boos in armmy. Or when win important place and want build tower dont need to w8 until your engyner come from base becuse you normaly dont get enginers on fight.

I dont understand why build scarab and let them in base when normal enginer is 50% cheaper and can build more versatile buuildings. When i want to use him as tmd then we have anchor function.

pip wrote: the energy cost only matters in very early game, after that it's meaningless

not true, -120energy per second is not meaningles for time when you dont have T3 Pgen. And that is long time, transport is mostly about masive energy cost and low surviability.
Dont take him faster buildtime, but not let them cost as other transport when have 33-50% lower effectivity. That 40 mass diference (1lab+scout price) is really nothing, when in most of game are average build less then 1 T1 transport on player.
I would rather to see 120 mass cost transport but with 3100 energy cost as 80 mass and 4800e But +2 speed bonus is new for me, that make him better surviability as others.. Dont would be better solution get him normal full price as others, with 500 hp as other, and -2slot would be compared with +2 speed ( better chance go on finish alive but when that happends drop smaler group of units ? )
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby Apofenas » 10 Jul 2014, 05:39

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
Who is building 50% more expensive untis for build structures in base? it is field enginer, he have litle more buildpower, but not as 50% more mass what he cost and build limitation what he have. For building central base it is waste of mass and oportunity to use him on field. Linked him with some tanks is pretty anoing when that units die, must relink him. Sparky is same category of enginer and is military and none have problem with canceling building que and none is using him as dps units.


Remember that game on dragon river, where i was facing Tokyto? I built like 6 of those, when he tried to tml my mexes and these units payed off at that moment. They continued to do their job as tmd and build power until i got killed.

Yesterday i reactionary built a couple, when i was facing your clan mate on desert planet. Shame he started launching those when i already had static tmd, but those engies payed themself off in other situations as engineers.
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
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Re: Build 49 balance changelog

Postby pip » 10 Jul 2014, 12:50

1) OC, I won't repeat myself about OC, it's useless to keep complaining about the same thing. Other ACU don't have capacitor, learn to use it at your advantage.

2) Learn to set your engies / field engies on patrol instead of insisting to change them into attacking units. Even ACU is not selected with attacking units, it doesn't mean he has to stay in the base. People of other factions perfectly manage to set their t1 engies on patrol, so I'm sure you can manage to do it fine enough, and it will ensure the patrol is not cancelled whenever you issue a move order for your attacking units.

3) The t1 air transport was draining 120 energy all the same with the previous stats, except it was built in 30 seconds instead of 40 seconds. But since the unit is also much faster, it was really unfair. 120 energy drain is not a big deal after very early game because the drain is much lower when you build your air factory near a hydro and surround it with pgens. The t1 transport always had 12 speed (except when it had 15 speed and could only transport 1 unit, which I changed for obvious reasons) and that is the advantage it has to make up for the 4 spots inside it.
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