Build 48 Balance Changelog

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby pip » 30 May 2014, 09:48

b48 balance changelog:

Structures:
- T2 point defense : Rate of fire = 0.4 (from 0.39), DPS = 120 (from 114).

Land :
- ACU : ACU rate of fire not reduced when in capacitor mode
- T1 tanks speed : 3.6 (from 3.5)
- Tank destroyer various buffs : speed = 2.6 (from 2.5), max acceleration = 0.8 (from 0.7); AOE = 1.5 (from 1.2); firing randomness on the move reduced to 0.9, firing tolerance while on the move reduced to 0.5. Turret turn speed = 45 (from 40).
- EMP tank : damage to shield reduced to 140 (from 160); speed = 2.7 (from 2.6) ; range = 35 (from 32), stun durations were fixed and work properly for t1 units, stun duration = t1 : 2.5 sec, t2 : 1.25 sec, t3 0.625 sec
- Nova as t3 aurora : 3500 HP (from 5500), speed 2.5 (from 3.5); main weapon : 200 DPS = 1200 damages every 6 seconds at 40 range with 1 AOE (from 1200 damages every 7 seconds at 38 range with 1.5 AOE) ; other weapon = 160 DPS : 200 damages (from 160) with 0.8 rate of fire (from 1)
- Beamer DPS increased to 2400 (from 2250)


Naval changes:
- Destroyer : bombard rate of fire = 0.4 (from 0.45), bombardturretturnspeed = 10 (from no value)
- Cruiser nerf : AA weapon rate of fire = 0.625 (from 0.65) ; EMP range = 75 (from 80), stun duration = tech 1 2 sec / tech 2 1 sec / tech 3 0.5 sec, rate of fire = 0.625 (from 0.75)
- Railgun Carrier : HP reduced to 2600 (from 2700), cost reduced to 1280 mass, 9600 energy, 4800 buildtime (from 1500/10800/5400)
- Heavy destroyer buff :
> general changes = 8000 mass (from 7000) and 34 000 HP (from 28 000) ; veterancy = 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (from 25/50, etc). Speed = 4 (from 4.2) ; turn rate = 35 (from 25)
> main cannon rate of fire = 0.2 (from 0.18), bombard rate of fire = 0.333; bombardturretturnspeed = 5 (from no value); muzzle velocity = 40 (from 45), bombard firing randomness = 0.8 (from 0.5), yaw range = 150 (from 100) and yaw speed = 70 (from 60) ;
> AA weapon : muzzle velocity = 35 (from 22), damage = 50 (from 30), rate of fire = 3.333 (from 4); AOE = 2 (from 3), firing randomness = 2 (from 3) ; range = 50 (from 45) ;
> stingray cannon range = 50 (from 45)
- T3 sub buffs : Health = 6000 HP (from 5000) ; missiles damages = 800 (from 675) DPS = 240 (from 202.5), muzzle salvo delay = 0.8 (from 1); torpedo initial speed = 1 ; acceleration = 3
- T3 aircraft carrier buff : cost = 3800 mass and 38000 energy (from 4000 and 40 000), buildtime = 12000 (from 14400); range= 85 (from 100); damage = 30 (from 20), rate of fire = 2.5 (from 3.4) DPS = 600 (from 533) ; firingrandomness = 0.75 (from 0.05)


Air:
- T1 Bomber : different rates of fire fixed, AOE = 2.6 (from 2.5), firing randomness = 1 (from 0.75)
- T1 gunship : 4050 energy (from 4500)
- Torpedo Gunship : torpedo weapon DPS increased to 50 (from 45)

SCU Rework:
- SACU Factory : Health = 8000 HP (from 10 000), cost = 2000 mass, 2000 energy, 2000 buildtime (from 3000, 30000, 3000)

- SACU upgrades have been made cheaper overall.
- RAS upgrade changed into a Resource Generator that produces 2 mass and 400 energy (from +5 mass and + 1500 energy), speeds up capacitor charge (20 seconds instead of 50) ; explosion when Resource Generator is equipped reduced to 3500 (from 7000); cost changed to 800 mass / 50 000 energy / 3600 buildtime (from 3200 mass, 60000 energy, 4800 buildtime)

- Regular SACU : cheaper, weaker, doesn't produce any resources if not equipped with a resource generator upgrade (from +1 mass and +20 energy)
Cost = 1400 mass, 10 800 buildtime (from 2000 mass, 14400 buildtime)
12 000 HP (from 14 000), base weapon : DPS = 281 DPS (from 300), range = 25.

- Offensive SACU : cost reduced across the board ; are now selected like attack units (since they cannot build anything)
- New Presets :
* Fast Combat Preset : cannon and machinegun + locomotor upgrade (1900 mass ; speed = 3.3, 581 DPS at 25 range)
*Gunslinger (uses the single gun icon) : equipped with double left gun only (1600 masscost; 12 000 HP, 562 DPS, 35 range)
* Heavy Gunslinger (uses double gun icon) : double left gun + capacitor addon + rapid repair (3000 masscost; 16000 HP, 562 DPS, 35 range, 30 seconds capacitor time)
* Combat preset (uses now explosion icon) : dual weapons with left gun upgrade (2200 masscost; 12 000 HP, one weapon with 562 DPS, 35 range, another one with 300 DPS, 25 range)
* Energy Rocket Launcher (uses AOE icon) : dual rocket launchers + Resource generator (3100 mass; 12 000 HP, 360 DPS and 50 range, capacitor charge time is 20 seconds instead of 50 seconds)
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 10 Jun 2014, 17:03

wheeler class buff imho not best option. Nomads T2 navy was one of the best, only serafin can deal with them, and wheeler was pretty good before, this 15% discont make him better as was, and T2 navy probably same as was.
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby pip » 10 Jun 2014, 17:43

Nomads navy was best except against Sera because Cruiser was OP and Railgun Carrier not bad, but not good enough to counter Sera.

Now that the Cruiser EMP has been significantly nerfed, the railgun carrier has been buffed so that it's good enough to counter Sera and limit the Sera ease to counter Nomads with submerged Destroyers. Now, if Sera abuse submerged Destroyers, Nomads can counter them with mass railgun carriers. But against any other destroyer, mass railgun carrier will fail badly, because they don't have a lot of HP, so Nomads will need destroyers too (and not just Cruisers, because they have been nerfed).

All in all, Nomads t2 naval units are all strong but have big weakness if you don't have all 3 units. They don't have mobile shields, nor stealth nor torpedo on destroyer, so that's meant this way. Mixed navy = strong, unmixed = weak.
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 12 Jun 2014, 13:38

I make litle test with navy, (very artificial test against not movable PC, but i try with and against so can comapere micro, what is most significant with nomads, what is good)

but heavy destroer is probably too strong now. hp boost and cost price was good move, but he need lower dps(prbably long range one). on low range he is monester with cca 2x biger dps as other bs. he had best manevrable and beat UEF batlecruiser too. and probably only one who can beat tempest 2nomad bs vs tempest bs win.

I know that i was that one who was saying that nomad T3 navy need something, but now nomad it is too much.

What will (maybe) help would be lower long range dmg, 200-150. and then test it again.
or more risky and more in nomads style drastic lower long range canon dps from 200->100dps (600per shot x2canon), but on bombard mode rate of fire fire faster (but still litle lower dps as is now) = on lower range monster on long range weak -> need be agresive and dont creep on range what would oponents try to do

For now im more carefull about judge what would help and what not :)

And T3 subs look good, big price for good subs, and not paper as was. against sera subs lose because dont had torp defense but that is right. against ship is perfect but cost 4800 mass so it is fair.
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby pip » 13 Jun 2014, 13:06

The Nomad Heavy Destroyer is supposed to be very strong because Nomads have no mobile shields on water and no Stealth. It costs 1000 mass more than UEF Battlecruiser and UEF can use shield boats (and always do) to help their Battlecruisers survive longer, Nomads can't do that. UEF Battleship is still much stronger due to long range. In order to use Nomads Heavy Destroyer to its full potential, it needs to get right in the face of the enemy fleet, but then it's very vulnerable, especially if the opponent has a lot of frigates to protect his battleships, because it doesn't have much HP compared to Battleships. It's also much more vulnerable to torpedo bombers and air in general.

All factions have some means to counter Nomads Heavy Destroyer :
- Sera = t3 subs + battleship because both units outrange the nomads Heavy Destroyer.
- Aeon = battleship + mobile shields /t3 torp bomber / Tempest
- Cybran = cheap battleship (though for now, their battleship DPS is bugged so Nomads will win until it is fixed) + stealth / Harms to prevent Nomad Destroyer to get too close
- UEF = battleships or Battlecruiser + shield boats / Atlantis

Last thing, the Nomads Heavy Destroyer cannot shoot from behind at all. All Battleships and the battlecruiser can, so it's a big weakness if you are not careful with your micro.

So if possible, try a real game to test, on roanoke or white fire. It's not possible to check a unit's strength when it's not similar to any other. If you try to test Sera destro against Nomads destro, it's not relevant, you need to check all t2 units interactions. This is the same for the t3 heavy Destroyer : all t3 units need to be take into account.
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 13 Jun 2014, 16:48

i dont found a ppl to test it with me.
you dont have time for that test?

It is not easy test on normal game, becase it is T3 tier what very rarely ocur, and when then one side had better position like other = more ships, more reasource. So in normal game is on my opinion imposible make corect balance testing. maybe with 1000+ game and statistic but this never happend:(.

Best test would be when both side would had same value of reasource, and try to push oponent, how he can.
_____________

I dont try only batleship against nomad heavy destro, then batleship lose, (except UEF alive with cca 2000hp) I try cca same mass value 1bs + 6T2
when oponent alow nomad bs go on range, then it is like when chield in zoo go with candy near Tieger cage. It is masacre :mrgreen:


Shield and stealth help, but mobile shield are not so comon, and stealt is no value because nomad like it face to face and are trying to go on very short distance:). imho solve this would be not make one ship so strong, but buff anti-shield = make carrier stun very effective to disrupt shield. So when mobile shiled and shield boat occur then nomad had answer.
because now it is you must go with shield or you are in big trouble.

but again we need test it, you had in your mind idea what is good counter against nomad you are suposted to be best oponent to nomads. dont try it?
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby pip » 13 Jun 2014, 21:44

Here is another test you can do, by yourself : the tests you did with the Nomad heavy destroyer, do them in the same way with the Aeon Battleship and see if the Nomad Destroyer is more efficient / same / less efficient than Aeon Battleship.
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 14 Jun 2014, 12:44

tested yet, it is cca same as aeon one. sometime lose sometime win. but something is diferent. before i rape him on close range now it is cca 4000 hp diferences. When im too close one canon doesnt fire, before that ship had better manevrable, canon turn faster, and most important has better acurate, now bombard mode dont 100% hit ship where is total near.
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby pip » 14 Jun 2014, 17:56

I don't mean to test Nomads heavy Destroyer against Aeon Battleship, but to do the same tests you did against other battleships with the Aeon Battleship. You will notice that Aeon battleship, when he gets in the face of other battleships, also wins, because it has more DPS than them. Aeon Battleship has much more HP than Nomads Heavy Destroyer and slightly less DPS, but concept and range is very similar (close range, lot of DPS).

And yes, in my tests, Aeon Battleship survives against Nomads Heavy Destroyer with around 4000 hp left. And Aeon Battleship is supposed to be the worst of Battleships du to short range, so in my opinion, Nomads Heavy Destroyer is strong, but not too strong.
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Re: Build 48 Balance Changelog

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 14 Jun 2014, 20:55

ok probably it is fine. Im quite confused from this testing, in final it looks like worst batleship :D so not need to be nerf,
That bombard mode width change make them weaker as he was ->muth more less accurate, but more hp, make him better surviability against destroer and air.

so it is fine.

Maybe can be changet icon from battleship icon to batlecruiser, same as is UEF it is more batlecruiser role as batleship
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