BUG list

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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BUG list

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 01 May 2014, 23:35

Bug reaport section is closed so i put it here.

BUG NO. 1: upgrading more like one building in same start time dont upgrade nothing, jest ignore my order. I click on 3 mexis click upgrade and nothing hapend. same with fabrics etc.

BUG NO.1,1: bug 1.0 not ocur in all situation, but for it is here bug 1.1 :). When you order multiple buildings (mexes/fabs etc.) to upgrade and then click one of them and order him to stop upgrading by right clicking in the queue bar, all the other mexes you set to upgrade also stops (doesnt occur if you use the STOP button)

BUG NO.2: Artileri instalation dont fire on ground fire, it totally ignore my order and fire how they want.
grounfire is problem in more units, bomber same dont fire on ground fire when dont had objects.

bug NO.3: ACU double gun, here was some change but i dont found chanelog, but: on second gun upgrade is writed that it doubled dmg and dmg of overcharge too, but this doesnt happend. dmg of overchare is same 12K.

probably not BUG 3,5: nomads OC had 5sec reload instead of 3,3 like other fraction, is here some reason for it? Maybe that reason is bug 3.6. but on my opinion that it would be better if it woulnd not be in game. others OC are much better 2,5vs1,5AOE and kill much more units like nomads one. Problem with this nomads style OC is that acu is hight and pass multiple units in line only on hight tech (hight units) where are acu save in base.

BUG 3,6: OC can take several units on one shot when are on row, it dont fire one proectil but many and each give 12K dmg. so the first one kill first units second go on second unit kill them and etc. i kill 10 percies in row with one OC. This dont occur in all situation and i dont know why it sometime work in this bug form.

BUG NO.4: On units is not see how big regen unit had per sec, i think this is because nomads doesnt work well with gaz ui what is not fully integrate for nomads.

BUG NO 5: maybe not bug, capacitator can not be put off, it exhaust whole and must start recover from start. If not bug would be nice to posible stop it and start recover not only from 0.


BUG NO 6: ACU RAMBO HP, when you upgrade rapid repair and then second repair it give you HP, when you remove advance one it and upgrade it again it give you more HP like before, in sumary i make ACU with 99K HP and can make unstopable one with milione HP :D

mistake NO.7: SACu factory is called SCU factory, dont know why not SACU /SAC facotry
sugg: SACu had voice, and speak, what is facepalm :) its baaad, sory man but its terible :) remove it, silence is better like this one. people would not like it and take it as one more reason why dont play nomads.
____

I try SACu against ship, it was very artificial testing on small lake, but i dont think that it can deal serious dmg. It is only 200dmg for 2 sec what is not enough for that price.

SACu misile upgrade is ussles, dont know situation where it can be good. Especialy double rocket, imho it would had biger range (75+) for role as mobile artilery, then it would be effective, now i dont know.

SACu right hand gun, look terible, realy, its bad :D imho it would be ideal or very good when it would had same gun like is left one, or the same texture like is gun from ACU.

SACU/ACU lights imho too much maybe put ligts on lower efekt.
___________

NOVA tank, its OP it has brutal speed, brutal range, very solid dmg and its hoover. It need some solid nerf. i had 7 nova tanks enemy 5 brick similar price and whiteout mirco i had 4 novas enemy 0 brick. with micro he kill me one. outhums had no chance. cant be so big range and speed together.

___________

not bug more about balance,

T1 bomber - i know that it was changed not so long time ago, but why is reaload time 7 sec when other fraction is only 4 sec? What is reason for that? its unable to mirco him for multiple shots, and predict him only fly randomnes in big circle.


T1 gunship - yeah yeah i know.. but that energy cost is insine, big build time (what actualy is) make same work for avoid early harash, T2gunship cost 4800energy, T1 4500, but T1 had 40% HP and 50%dmg. Its too energy expensive, fully understand that we want to avoid early haras what is anoing, but this stop it for spaming, and when its so easy to destroy them you must spam when want to use it against land army and not only against enginer/mex harash
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Re: BUG list

Postby pip » 10 May 2014, 18:02

Thanks for the report.

Bug n°1: I don't really understand, for me it works normally. I select 3 mexes, click upgrade, they all start to upgrade.

Bug n°1.1: same. I don't have any issue, i don't understand what you're trying to do and can't reproduce.

Bug n°2: all is working fine for me for t2 and t3 rocket artillery. Be aware that if there is an object when you ground fire (like a tree, a stone, a wreck), once it is destroyed, the bomber / artillery, or whatever unit will stop shooting at the ground spot you ordered to shoot at.
If you mean the game ender / static heavy artillery, yes, it cannot shoot at ground for Brute knows what reason.

Bug n°3 : it's only a tooltip problem, will be fixed in next build (it's already fixed for a month but no new version has been uploaded yet). Double gun doesn't give double OC anymore because it was OP.

Bug n°3.5 : Nomads overcharge is different from other factions : 10 bullets are shots and they don't track target. It takes longer to cooldown because it's overall better than other overcharges, especially when used smartly. It spreads several bullets, which means the AOE is bigger than just the number written. Each bullets have 1.5 AOE but cover more ground, sometimes significantly behind units. You can kill a mobile shield plus the shield unit itself and units below in one shot because of the multiple bullets. Also, when used in capacitor mode, the AOE is even increased, and damages is increased too (15000 damages) with flames that remain active for 1.5 seconds.

Bug n° 3.6: no, each projectile doesn't deal 12 k damages, it's the sum of all projectiles that is 12 k. If some of the projectiles miss a percy, it will survive. However, using capacitor mod increases damage to 15 000, meaning percies will most likely die even if some projectiles don't hit.

Bug n° 4: yes, it's possible that some parts of GAZUI are not fully well displayed in nomads yet, though it's normally fully compatible.

Bug n°5 : it's not a bug, it's the way it works. Capacitor is like a battery that fills up when you have excess energy and can be used one time when activated. There is no option to stop the ability from draining once it's activated.

Bug n°6 : good catch, I think it can be fixed.

bug n°7 : SCU factory is a factory, not a quantum gateway, because Nomads don't have gating technology.

Nova tank is a real balance issue for naval maps especially, so it'll be reworked.

T1 bomber is faster than others. So it will attack sooner than others when you don't micro them, and more often. When it had 5 seconds reload, it was the best bomber, because it could shoot from the best angles among all bombers (like corsair). So it's specificity is now that it is faster and is better on normal bomber use and not good when microed like other bombers. If you want to micro a t1 unit to do stationary damage : build t1 gunships.

T1 gunship energy cost is planned to be 4050 (instead of 4500) in next build, unless other changes are made.

Finally, the added voices for SCU can be disabled in the option/interface menu.
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Re: BUG list

Postby Brute51 » 10 May 2014, 23:04

Pretty much what Pip said :-)

#1: Can you produce all 1.* bugs? And when you try the same with different factions? Can I have a replay?

#2: The T3 heavy artillery cannot do ground firing. It's a minor bug (right?) that I've been holding off to fix because other things are more important.

#7: The SCU talks because that makes the unit "human". There's an actual human pilot on the SCU or so we want to make it appear, hence the vocal responses. Like Pip said it can be tuned down or disabled via the options menu. Added this option because some people actually like the talking SCU (/me raises hand).
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Re: BUG list

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 12 May 2014, 13:37

1.0+1.1 on my and tokyto is some time doesnt work, i dont understand why sometime it work sometime not. When i play nomads before that guys say me they had big problem with mexes becase put it upgrade and it doesnt happend and i dont believe them when i won, but this in one game i had same problem and try it on piramide map (replay is here) and realy it doesnt work in some situation.

2. that is a posible, that i take ground fire on object and not on random(non object) place that i doesnt fire, i do not remember now :( (this problem had on forest something map ithilis + speed2 against some 2 low rating guys)

3.5 +3,6 On replay what i post i try it at first against loalalis and take 8 in one shot when they stay in line, but it doesnt take 12K each shot so probably it would be by AOEdmg for each schot, as you say. on 30,50 i try it against brick and destroy 3 bricks on one OC when stay on raw but probably by AOE. So my mistake. Ok it work perfect, when you know how it work, it is useful.

7 that undersand that it is a factory and not gatway, my post was about others SACUS are caled T3 Support Armored Command Unit but factory is Suport (armored) Comand Unit facotry, that Armored is not in name, when it build sAcu units, its total cosmetic and when it is intention its ok like it is, i reaport it only when its some like toltip mistake.
___
nova : whats you idea about nova rework?
i was with tokyto discuse about it how to fix it and its a real problem had one unit be usefull and not op on 2 warfares, maybe when it would split on 2 units it would be easier. one big hp, slow and low range tank and second T3 aurora: hover, big range (like nova) low hp and slow on land and fast in water.

ok i let the bomber and gunship be and live they own life :D

____

brute:
replays is here piramide one,
at this time i dont remember if it work same on other fraction, but i think that this problem is only on nomads on replay time 18,20

sacus voice, ok :D

what with sacus rocket upgrade? For what it is good, dont want to rework it for some usefull toll ?
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Re: BUG list

Postby pip » 12 May 2014, 19:58

For now, the idea about the Nova is to nerf it (hard, 3300 HP) so that it is much more like a t3 Aurora, which means you need to kite to keep them alive against heavy t3 units. With their move behaviour, it's possible to avoid percival shots, and survive longer.
This means they are more easily countered by Destroyers and Battleship. This will make them harder to use at t3, but the more there are, the more efficient they are (same as auroras).

To make up for weaker Nova, I intend to buff the EMP tank range and also slightly the DPS of mini Experimental (Beamer) to be more efficient against Percivals and Bricks.

The other idea for Nomads is for them to have early SACU for fighting at t3, so if Nova + EMP tanks are not strong enough to compete against other t3, maybe we will make SACU available sooner. We're not sure yet if we'll do that, nor how, just an idea.

As for rocket upgrade, it is good against buildings, immobile units, or crowds, and excellent in capacitor mode. You don't make it to counter experimentals, but to weaken armies and defenses. It's only 2700 mass for 50 range and 360 theoretical DPS (against buildings) and 450 DPS in capacitor mode. These DPS are greatly reduced against moving units, but if there is a whole army moving, lots of units will be damaged. Also, the arc shot means it can shoot well over hills, etc. They are like t3 Hoplites. These SCU alone won't stop an army by themselves, but they will force your opponent to move in or back off. If they move in, EMP tanks + Nova will finish the work. If they move back, you gain ground control and can reclaim.

Try something like the effect of rocket preset in capacitor mode on a waiting army, you will see it deals loads of damage, and it's very often that at t3 wo armies face each other. However, there is an issue with it. Since it's not the first weapon in the SACU weapon list, it will try to get in range of the first weapon if you manually target a unit, instead of staying at max range. That sucks, and we don't know yet how it can be fixed.
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Re: BUG list

Postby Brute51 » 12 May 2014, 20:20

For bug #1, there seems to be a bug in all of FA, not just Nomads. I actually know the problem that you're talking about but it is really hard to reproduce. It's almost (bad) luck whether you get the problem or not.

Nova: We're actually thinking about such an implementation. Pip has been experimenting with an Aurora-like Nova and there's already a new model for a heavy T3 tank.
But it is just one of the sollutions we're considering. Other directions that we're considering could include the SCU as a heavy T3 unit instead of the new T3 tank, as it is a heavy T3 unit already. The preset stuff makes it a viable T3 tank replacement but the problem is that you need to construct a different factory before having access to SCUs. Other alternatives are to make the Nova (even) worse on water, or even more dramatic changes.

SACU rockets: Not quite sure if this is a problem but I'll talk it over with Pip. At the moment it is a lower priority than the Nova. Do you have suggestions?
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Re: BUG list

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 13 May 2014, 15:01

pip wrote:For now, the idea about the Nova is to nerf it (hard, 3300 HP) so that it is much more like a t3 Aurora

i suggest 3500 hp, for surviving one pass by T3 bomber, becase nomads dont had shield. otherwise i feel it same. maybe a very litle range buff to 40 from 38. aurora range is 30% bigger like other this would be 12,5% biger like percis and same 30% like harbs/outhum. but its more for nicer numbers.

____
Brute
_
I never had this problem in game whitotu nomads, and dont hear none that had it same, maybe im wrong, but i think that it is somone hiden in nomads mod that ocur in some badluck situation on all fraction.
_

I like that pip nova idea, i think it would work, only what i would change would be (up) and name, because then it definitly not would be super heavy tank:)

Im not sure if sacus would be posible to stay on same role like tanks, its much more expensive and... i dont know.. maybe when beamer would be cheaper with more hp and lower dmg, for be on tanky position. yeah already is extremly cheap, and scruw him from exp position, ok its probably only bad idea.

or another wired idea :) give nova funcion that would give speed aura and 20%of hp bost on T2 units near NOVA (for speed as nova 4, with funkcion as in on sera sacu, that for one nova only 3units in some range around) for easy raiding,and maybe avoiding army and using T2 brutes tank for tanks position. T2 tanks are not mass efective as T3 = 840/250 x brutes tank stats => 5880HP and 235dps with 20% boost around nova => 7056HP and 235dps with low range. not so good against percies but with novas it can work. Against loalalist/titan its 4000HP and 135 dps same speed/range and lower dps so very similar. and against harbs/outhums its litle better hp, better speed but dps is 66%lower. Wout be easy contered by strat (no shield) but nomads had perfect T3 AA, so it can bring brutal big mixed army on T3 position. Imho it would work, but maybe it is more wired like use sacus as tanks :)
__
rocket,
we can discuse about it when it start be priority.. i can try it on position as you say, but i think this ocur very rare, that army is not moving when you atacking them. PDs had same range so its imposible use against base, or only when you rush with army but then its not so big deal against well defense base. ok this later...
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Re: BUG list

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 13 May 2014, 18:12

Guys i had a big problem.. :?
It is bad and dont know that it had some solution..


__
I definitely fall in a love with that idea!
.

When nomads is rushing agresive fraction, then this would be completly soling many problem and on nomads style, and will bring something new on game what would help gameplay on other fraction too. Not too strong but not weak, whitout need of brutal micro(only well micro) (what neednes of micro is a real weaknes) and nomad players would be push to be very aggressive.

change from previous post:
NOVA hp 5500 ->3500 hp;
lower speed 4->3,2 (remove water penalty);
dps lower from 320->300, (harbs/brick 375, percy/outhum 400) [if too strong, then 275dps 1100by shot]
remove rocket, allow only primary long range cannon,
range slightly buff 38->40
Rate Of Fire lower from 7,1 to 4sec each by 1200 dmg (percy had 1600),
AOE dmg lower from 2 -> 1,5;
give new "command" ability which consume -35energy and can be put on/off,
when is put on had 30 range and catch max 3 nearest T2 units (land/naval/air)
bonus would be active after 5 second from leaving range,
give +20% HP , and give increase speed to 4,2,
when go in and out from range units with wound dont "instant heal" units but bring same % of life from new 20% bigger base.
.
EMP tank stay as it
__

Cant someone dont love it? :)
Imagine result:

NOVA alone is paper, would be rape against T3 army, but what they had is good range and slither better speed but, lower dps but aoe dmg, definitely need something what would do meal shield before enemy. That would be T2 units.

brute tank (hi Brute) would had 2100 hp and with that speed bust would be fast in front blocking and dmging oponents, T2 had with comparing with T3 low dps, for price as outhum it is 235 dps vs 400 a and 356 lower hp. dominator tank would had also too better survivability 2400 hp. so in final army would be build from mix T2 and novas and AA as defens against weakness (low HP on single units)

also this would perfectly work on naval too. We dont need T3 naval buff then, because we would use T2 better. With novas destroyer would had bigger hp (7680 - similar like aeon but less dps), so would had slightly more time to go on range against T3 battleships what is a weak point from nomad, when are on range they can do perfect job. And T3 nomads heavy destroyer is one of the best ship against other T3 ship in universe (when is on range). cruiser also would had slightly better survivability (3420) so on T3 would be little bit easier to go on stun range and on range are nomads vessel perfect.

and probably not so effective but still nice is hp bonus for T2 gunship, with 860->1032 hp but this nearly never occur. And on T3 its not big boost and still cost most from others gunships.
__

this would be beautifull fix naval problem, and also land issue what bring very agresive strategy of pushing t2 army supporting by NOVAs.
...

and now say me: how i can dont love it?
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Re: BUG list

Postby pip » 14 May 2014, 18:49

The command aura idea is an idea for an ACU or SCU, not for a unit that you can spam. And it already exists: it's the Seraphim ACU restoration field level 2 (it gives 10% more HP and high regen). Nomads have nothing to do with Seraphim, they are supposed to have far less advanced technology (only their firepower is good).

As for 40 range Nova, it's not possible unless it gets low speed (like aurora) around 2.5, so that Othuum can get in range decently. I prefer a speed 3 Nova with 38 range so that Othuum has a chance to catch / damage them with their 32 range weapon. Just 1 range difference is a huge deal, it's the main reason why Othuum suck (Harbingers have only 3 more range than Othuum main weapons and they are far superior for this reason). Nova has currently 13 more range (6 for the long range weapon of the othuum), it's a huge difference, and only works because it's only half the DPS. If the Nova had all its DPS, or even just 300 DPS at 40 range, as you suggest, Harbingers and Othuum would not be able to approach (only percivals would be able to compete).

However, you made a good point about the Aeon strat bomber killing 3300 HP Nova too easily. 3500 HP may be enough a nerf. 3300 was chosen because it's the minimal value above 2 percival shots. The less HP the nova has, the easier it is for ships to counter them.

As for Rockets, it's better to talk about them once SCU upgrade values are definitive, it's not yet the case, some changes are planned. But if you don't check out what dual rockets do in capacitor mode, especially against a line of t2 pd, you can't understand why it's a powerful upgrade.
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Re: BUG list

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 15 May 2014, 17:11

That comand aura i had from serafin acu, that it would not be so big problem code it when it already exist. As you know restoration field on serafin ACU is never used, or very, very rare. When you put it on nomads acu/sacu it would be same, and dont help fix this problem. It can look like when it is on acu it can not be on unit that can be spam, but UEF sacu had jamer and can be spam by sparky or frigate or cybran gunships, same cybran had cloac and can be on deciver.

Nomads had a technology far away from other fractions but must be comparable with other nations, and give bonus HP to T2 units is exactly a bring more firepower where the nomads are excellent.
(serafin restoration field is a different one, that is as "ohh my units around :feel my power from the destiny, elktro-nano-biotikulator bring a shellter on your plate armor!" where nomads comand aura is like "Soldier!! we go on fight it would be hard fight but are will is unbreakable! dont feel the pain and go directly to the mount of hell, i will command you!" :) )


When we agree that NOVA would be T3 aurora (my hand is up!) then we need something what would defend them. so we need some units with many hp in front of them and must be possible to easy spam them.
.
So there are this options A) new "many hp" T3 units B) rework NOVA to dont be aurora (NOOOOOOOOOOOO..) C) use other tech units as T3 units
Use sacu as tank is on my opinion bad idea, because nomads are yet very complicate and complex nation, you must combine this with this and with this to be as effective as when other fraction use only one unit type. Sacus are not posible to spam, it is expensive special unit for special situation and would not be many player who will know that this is how to save NOVAs against be raped, so in finally they would be raped many time and start crying about how low they are and need balance, and wold not be pleasure for them to play nomads, and would be against make nomads as normal fraction on FAF... (thats why i try to push balance on final)

Why this command aura would not be problem on units that ppl can spam is that it would had small number of unit that it catch. So you must had big mount of T3 units too. (radius 30 is because it want to catch naval too, and naval had bigger spreed distances, but probably would be enough as visual radius = 25)
___

NOVA,
speed 3,2 vs low, fully agree, i decide 3,2 because it is speed on water, and cant be extremly slow on water, it would help when would be slower on land and faster on water (but its hard to explain as nomad shit technology) . And is not so big differences betwem 3,2 or 3,0 so 3,0 is great.
-
Range
40 vs 38 is more about calculation, it look nicer :) and it is not so big differences, what is a big differences is a join canon from 2 to one, then range is a problem and you had probably right. So i throw this idea, 1100 every 4 sec would be OP.
but i will rather when it would a change a dmg too, i dont had calculate it yet but maybe 320->300/275dps split on 150 on long range canon (38->40range, rof 7,1->6) and 150/125 on low range canon (25->20/22range) what pretty help other units use they range against NOVA :twisted:, bigger range but only 30% dmg and 70% of dmg on low range. about outhums ready down

..Outhum -> in past i was test every T3 units how good they are for each others fraction, and you will be surprised but serafin T3 are best one, outhum with shield are mass to mass most effective units, you need micro and energy for shield but they then rape brick/percival with very good efetcivnes, against titans are better, against loayalist stund had problem. Harbs with shields are third that efective as outhum with shield. Specificum about aeon and serafins is that they must combine with shileds and spider bot, many people forget for it but spider bots on flat map rape percis/bric/ exp preaty easy, And this would be same and more ultimate against nomads, 2 shots from sera sniper and nova is down, sniper is 15% cheaper unit, with one time bigger range. (thats a reson why that comand aura need speed bonus for around units, because then nomads would be very week against sniper, because dont had shield -> and speed of big mounth units is something like firepower, what is exaktly in that where are nomads experts)
..aeons similar like sera outhums must use shiled and sniper, but can better use T3 artilery against nomads, low hp on unit, army (can fire on move) And dont forget that when outhum had 400dps nova would had 70% from that, and only 55%HP so when use shield and go on range (nomad player dont micro) then would be raped same as are raped aeons player with auroras when something go on range) when dont use shiled can use sniper bot and shot them from range, nomad can counter it from air or by T3 artilery and of course speed buff help them a litle to catch non micred snipers
_
Ok its a huge mount of text, but i hope that it help me to get you for this command aura idea and massive use T2 units on T3 position.

on my mind it looks like ideal - beautiful solution
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