Nomads Ships - leviathan

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 10 Apr 2014, 00:00

ehmmm... T3 Need buff. (a little bit)

I test it, discus, test, test, discus, discus, and discus... and here is what i think is problem, and what will help.
_________

Nomad has incredible complicate navy, at first, but its not a problem.
And it looks wired but i must say thats a relative well balanced.

T2
Can win only if cruiser are alive, when cruiser is going out, nomad navy is going out with them.
Against sera had problem, becase submerge destro had many HP and railgun ships are only what can do something with them, and dont win 2x mass to mass. against T1/T2 submarine is perfect, against sera are weak but can do it with top gunships, when lose air nomads navy against sera dont had chance. against aeon its similar but better, against uef on T2 win, But problem is on T3 where lose, and cant do nothing with it

Leviathan submarine is somthing between great unit and ussles unit. And i can not decide what it is :D
Understand that ist between Torrent and sera submarine. On position as torent its great unit, not that good as torent but cheaper, but torrent is total crapy unit for that price. But on position as is sera submarine it cost 63% more and had less hp, less dps, and no AA. And nomads need some strong unit on T3 navy, because T3 batleship is perfect against T3 body to body, but weak against big argmy, destroyers and submarine. And this position perfectly can occupy leviathan, but not like its today, now its expensive paper.
Nomads had zero (0) chance against tempest and litle bit better but styll total uber poor against atlantis. they do nothing.

My suggestion: give leviathan more HP for better surviability, becase nomads dont had torp defense, leviathan can be then easily killed with subs, or torp bomber. 1 solace 2 pass and its down, or 6 torp bombers on one pass. 4001 is better becase solace must do 3 pass/+1bomber. but still not enought for go against navy exp or sera subs, or destroers. is 6000hp to much?
Sera sub had 1,5HP for one mass nomads had 0,8hp per one mass. on 6000hp it will be 1,2HP for one mass. And on bombard ship (torrent position) it doesnt had big impact when it had 4K or 6K HP.

the second thing is, that torp defence what nomad dont had and other has. In summary leviathan do 0 dmg to tempest. because tempest had better torp def like leviathan can fire. On sera subs it take only half dmg, because torp def. and nomads dont had nothing like that, and thas a problem. It will not be problem when they dont use torpedo, but switch on submarine rail-gun same as had batlecruiser or T2 wheeler with same range and dps at had today with torpedos. Or (idea what i dont support) take them more, much more torpedos not 4 torp every 3,3sec but maybe 16 torpedos for 75dmg every 4sec, for overwhelming torp defense.

the third thing: Im missing atom on navy :(, i know that they are different one, but navy atom ... :( It can not be on submarine, becase will be incredible expensive or op. Battlecruiser had low hp and is cheap. and carrier is cheap. dont see a place for atom, but still im mising him.
Had one idea, that can be something betwen it. and thats take leviathan posibility to build not atom, but tactical misile launcher. Same as is on acu 2hp for misile 6000dmg 2aoe, manual launch 180 mass for misile, (same as on ACU) same range as is ACU/TML 128.
will it be op ? How take it them to battlecruiser/carrier?


BUG report: When you play nomads, cybran T2 support navy factory cant build T2 enginers
cybran cruisers tmd had a problem destroy nomad cruiser missile. it dont manner like missile. or it had more hp like can tmd destroy.
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby pip » 10 Apr 2014, 09:23

Thanks for testing the navy. It's true there is a big difficulty because Nomads navy is weak against Seraphim at t2, but maybe too strong against UEF T2, and then too weak against UEF t3 because T3 UEF has best battleship. Hard to find a proper balance. Cruiser is still probably a bit too stong.

However, for t3, you forgot a major thing in Nomads t3 navy : t3 hover tank (which for now is immune to torpedoes). Without hover tanks, it will be very hard to win with t3 navy. They are very strong for naval combat because they are cheap and have high HP.

Besides, railgun weapon "eat" torpedoes and acts as a torp defense. If you have a lot of railgun boats, you will protect your navy from torpedoes. As for the t3 sub, sera subs are not stronger agaisnt tempest, because Tempest now use depth charges and not torpedoes, so torpedo defenses of sera subs don't work. Nomads Leviathan has few HP because it is a long range unit. If it has too high HP, you will win the game by just spamming them. It has longer range when surfaced with missile weapons. If it has too much HP, it will be too easy to use in that mod. Maybe 6000 HP is not too much because it has no torp defense, but it's still a lot of HP for an underwater unit.

Other thing : Nomads SCU has a railgun upgrade and is very efficient underwater, you can protect Leviathan with them, and they can reclaim. The railgun weapons effectiveness against torpedo can be increased if it's not enough.

Last thing : the absence of nuke on t3 navy is not a big issue IMO, because of the unique features Nomads already have : t3 hover tank and SCU with antinavy weapon. We intended to put a nuke defense on the air craft carrier, but it's a problem because buildtime of air factory and buildtime of nuke defense are completely different, we cannot use the same unit to do both role without major problems.

As for the bugs, Nomad cruiser missile has 2 HP, so it needs two shots of TMD to be destroyed. I don't know what's wrong with the cybran t2 support factory. I don't think nomads change it.
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 10 Apr 2014, 11:38

Thats why nomad win against UEF T2 is only becase UEF are totaly sux at T2, i had writen one big and complex water balance what change position of destro and submarine, because now are submarine ussles on comparing with destro, only exceptions is UEF becase destro dont had torp dmg (but i know that this change now dont happend and will be rape on forum, so let it bee)

Against T3 i try nomads against weakest batleships - cybran and was hardly rape when i use T3 tanks too. I dont use SACU becase it was not with us "balance rule" what is alowed to use, but when cybran start use underwater sacu too i will be raped much more HARM for total win. Hover tanks are extremly slow on water, know that cant be faster, but dont go on distace for shot i was destroyed from distance. I use mostly only submarine, becase had big range, but was totaly raped with bombers, my cruiser go down on one shot. So what i want to say on T3 are raped be everybody :/. And dont deal with it.

Sera subs against tempest, yes i know tempest dont use torpedos, and i love tempest for it :) but styll do more dmg to tempest, or can take realy significant dmg to tempest cost by cost, cost 63% less like leviathan, On T3 sera can only build T3 subs to win navy, and with cruiser misile bombard win the game. It will not be problem when nomad would on T3 spam submarine, styll it will be not as good as sera becase had no AA and cost muth more. still it had poor mas for HP calcul and on 6HP will be styll beter mass for HP for each other subs like for leviathan. Its diferences had 3sera subs or 2 nomads, same cost i dont test it but i dont think that nomads kill at least one sera subs.

Anti nuke can be then put on battlecruiser for avoid a build problems.
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby pip » 11 Apr 2014, 16:26

Can you post the replay of this game / test?
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 11 Apr 2014, 18:53

Here is it.

And yes, i may use more hover tanks like i use, that was maybe problem why they was ussles, that i use them only few and say "no way, try something else". When would had some time can try it, again.




(maybe) BUG REAPORT: And maybe would be problem that T3 nomad heavy destro doesnt fire when is going back from battle. But maybe its intention.

(maybe) BUG REAPORT 2: When ACU ubgrade GUN it is not visual see on ACU, or its see very hard. Or im blind, and dont look on it in right time, but coplayer say me that its not posible to see ungradet gun.
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby Brute51 » 11 Apr 2014, 20:31

Bug report 1: I think there's a turret arc limit on the Heavy Destroyer so that it can't fire at anything behind it. This is quite normal on Supcom naval units otherwise the turret would shoot through the ship. THe heavy destroyer should still fire its weapons that can rotate to fire at anything behind it: the submerged railgun and the 2 smaller turrets on the side.

Bug report 2: Yeah we have to update the ACU model to show all enhancements. Unfortunately this is a lot of work and its not at the top of the priorities list at this moment.


By the way, thanks for the testing!
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby pip » 11 Apr 2014, 21:54

Ithilis_Quo wrote:Here is it.

And yes, i may use more hover tanks like i use, that was maybe problem why they was ussles, that i use them only few and say "no way, try something else". When would had some time can try it, again.




(maybe) BUG REAPORT: And maybe would be problem that T3 nomad heavy destro doesnt fire when is going back from battle. But maybe its intention.

(maybe) BUG REAPORT 2: When ACU ubgrade GUN it is not visual see on ACU, or its see very hard. Or im blind, and dont look on it in right time, but coplayer say me that its not posible to see ungradet gun.



Thanks for the replay and the long testing. The T3 navy will be buffed, though your testing against Cybran t3 was not good. You counter 3 Battleships with 3 Heavy Destroyers, or with 25 T3 tanks, not with just one Heavy Destroyer 2 t3 tanks, a cruiser, and 2 submarines, it won't work.
As Brute saidd, you lost your first Heavy Destroyer because you retreated, but it's a bad idea, because it cannot shoot from behind (unlike Battleships, which have a rear canon). For Nomads, the Destroyer can shoot backwards, but not the Heavy Destroyer (it can, but just the secondary weapons, not the long range guns).

As for the leviathan, it's a long range unit, it's supposed to be fragile. It cannot have a lot of HP, otherwise, you just need to spam it and no other units. It has a few issues, and it will be overall improved. T3 navy will be significantly improved, maybe too strong, but we will see.
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 11 Apr 2014, 22:50

pip wrote:esting against Cybran t3 was not good. You counter 3 Battleships with 3 Heavy Destroyers, or with 25 T3 tanks, not with just one Heavy Destroyer 2 t3 tanks, a cruiser, and 2 submarines, it won't work.
As Brute saidd, you lost your first Heavy Destroyer because you retreated, but it's a bad idea,


Yes i know, when i look on that replay again a see that mistake, but on that time i dont had infomration that he dont fire backward, so i lose them and then loose another navy. We had a rule that what is on start, so i build Tanks with navy when he build only navy, what cost me buildpower what tokyto use for build 3 battleship. When i lose my first heavy destroer by my mistake then i loose it all.
After it you will see it on end when i try Hdestro on many use and all time win against tokyto :twisted: This T3 destro is a great unit but not so mutch for big fight, against T2 its weak and probably lose on low HP, + nomads dont had long fire suport from battleship/tempest. But i dont try it on big T3 fight so im not sure and try it later with many T3 tanks and scus.

I had one idea with artileri suport issue (what come on me mind while i was thinking what to do with T3 navy). But i make a new topic for it, becase its not only navy.
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby Azu » 02 May 2014, 16:20

I just played the Nomads for the 1st time and i got the Feeling that the t2 fighter/Bombers are very strong compared the other races.
-They can hit other air Units from very wide angles because of the guided Missiles.

-The guided guided Missiles should be removed for ground attacks and the regular bombs should be thrown from a larger
distance as they cant be dodged as easy as those of other factions.

Someone else please confirm it. Sorry that i have no Video as a proof
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Re: Nomads Ships - leviathan

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 02 May 2014, 16:50

It was buffed because before it was to low against ground units, actualy it give lower dmg against air and is better aiming on land. Its very nice bomber, but i think corsair is better, and anothers are shit becase had "buged" aiming who half time miss.

on ground you can dodge it ,it is firing in 2 salve and when you take first you dont must take second one when had attention on units(acu) the shots are spreting in biger distance so you dont take whole dmg only parth of it. On land it doesnt had guide misile, guide is only against air, what is more for effect, because all air atack is guided (interceptor never miss).
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