If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Balance discussions for The Nomads.

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If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Softly » 26 Dec 2012, 16:13

1) The most important thing is to first check your facts, because you are probably wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2) Make a post, provide a replay.
3) Explain exactly why the unit cannot be countered effectively, and show that you have tried every way of countering it.
4) Listen to feedback. We'll discuss why the unit is the way it is.

5) If you get past the above, then we'll change it to make it balanced.

If you decide not to go through the above steps, we don't have to care what you say. Lots of time has been put into balancing nomads, and cursory remarks on your part are of little help to us.
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Sunny » 01 Jan 2013, 03:27

This is an edited repost.

- t3 sub ML is too effective for it's mass (compare to Aeon Torrent, it doesn't have torps). Mb it's a compensation for not versatile t2 navy but... it's possible to overpower anything but air with just these, if you counter with, say, Sera sub hunter you end up with useless fleet, you also cannot conter these with torp launchers. I just cite it here, it's a widerly reckognized issue.
- t1 tank destroyer doesn't seem to be much of use as it loses to arties in large numbers and is useless in small numbers;
t1 arty also is worse, than other factions'. Mb even more range for tank destroyer would fix both. By "no to be much of use" I mean, it's plain useless. All the t1 tactics games of sort "back and forth". You can't keep t1 tank destroyers stand still, so you can't use them. When they aren't standing still, they lose to any sort of arty.
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Softly » 01 Jan 2013, 03:41

Sunny wrote: Mb even more range for tank destroyer would fix both.


Thats not really possible, it just makes the tank destroyer op. I am open to other balance suggestions for it, such as lowering its cost or increasing its accuracy while it is moving. Just some ideas.

Also the t3 sub is worse than the sera subs or the t2 subs/torp boats for the other factions mass for mass in a navy fight. It also has worse missiles than the aeon missile ship, easier to counter with tmd than the missile ship.
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Sunny » 01 Jan 2013, 04:01

My suggestion about the tank destroyer.

- about the t1 tanks destroyer thing
SUGGESTION: To bring it into game for real and not to break anything, I suggest.
1. Make it's range 30, like if it would be arty.
2. Leave the same dps, but make it fire with projectiles of dmg 100 with plain rate, or with some faster series, but not barrages. All this breaking OP thing is about fast flying 300 dmg projectile. Aurora will be 2 hits, other tanks 3 hits.
But! I suspect arties of other factios will still be a bit more effective.
Btw, Nomads' arty, even with it's bogus dps and infinite rocket travel time seems to be much better, than one would expect as it has range of 32. This means, it has more chances to fire a shot in armies micro.

- about t3 sub thing
Please note, that it's torps have range of 80, for t3 Sera subs' of 70 and Cyrans'(the best) destoryer of 45(!) this basically means, it rapes destroyers.
You can kill it with t3 sera subs mass for mass as they are 30% cheaper (I might be wrong on some maps, with micro).
But also please note the range of ML. It's 150. So even if you are standing still, you still kill bases as a side effect.
SUGGESTION: make it more of sub hunter and less of map control-giving arty by crippling ML's range to, say, 100-120. It's still a sub and can't be hit with t2 arites.
Make it cheaper, say, 3900-4100 mass instead of 4500.
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Softly » 01 Jan 2013, 12:59

Sunny wrote:Leave the same dps, but make it fire with projectiles of dmg 100 with plain rate


This wouldn't then be a tank destroyer. It would just be a tank with better range and worse health.


As far as the t3 subs go I really recommend you try them out in game. The main drawback of this t3 navy is that it is expensive to produce, and you don't get nearly as many ships out as the opponent at t2. T3 sera subs as stated are a counter, which is strong evidence in itself that they aren't op since the sera sub nerf a couple of patches ago.

Remember that these subs do not get torp defense, and don't actually have that much health. They are also slower than destroyers. Even just taking 2 destroyers vs one sub, its still not a clear cut victory for the sub, and thats with the destroyer having significant above water dps, combined less cost than a single sub, and not requiring an investment up to t3.
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Sunny » 01 Jan 2013, 18:09

Actually all my points are solely from the experience.

About tank destroyer: yes, this make it more of common tank and less of "cool sniper", but my suggestion is real and can bring currently useless unit to game. Also note that T3 sniper bot doesn't oneshot things as well.

The point that t3 Nomad sub is slower, than t2 destroyers, is a good point but is the only good point, this needs testing. As you see, I'm citing stats and I'm used to be a top 50 player in past, so, as you might guess, I do understand that t3 is more expensive and so on. Probably this is one these cases when there are not that many games played to make evident things evident. Anyway, anything, but t1 + t2, t3 land, t3 air, and with many-many remarks, t2 navy (note torp defenses being or too weak or broken, not cybran cruiser, switched to land dps, note the minimum amount of sheeps and mass for UEF to be in game vs Cybran all-destroyer army, note Sera destroyer's bugged laser and so on), was not actually EVER balanced :)

So yes, the points are not that important for now. But I still suggest make the subs cheaper and give their huge dps TML(which actually hits ships too, try to micro UEF fleet with shields against) less range for the reasons described above.

EDITED: "The point that t3 Nomad sub is a good point but is the only good point" is fixed to be "he point that t3 Nomad sub is slower, than t2 destroyers, is a good point but is the only good point"
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Sunny » 01 Jan 2013, 18:41

Point T4 Beamer is a bad unit.

vs Bricks, some simple math.
Let's calculate the worst case DPS of 9 Bricks, it's when they all get killed.
It's (375 * 9) / 2 = 1 687.5;
It's going to take 9000 / 2500 * 9 ~ 32 seconds for Beamer to kill Bricks
So they are going to do more than 1600 * 32 = 51 200 damage over this time.

So. Beamer is weak vs T3 bots. Completely not viable, weak like being soft-countered.

Currently, it isn't much of use vs T4 too, because of it's bad range, it needs to get in range get advantage of it's dps.
And dps of 2 beamers (if they win) is going to be 1,5-(2- some number) time of one, as one of the Beamers will be killed in action.
Let's see the rivals.
http://www.fa-nomads.com/db/supcomDB_sh ... 01,INU2007

1. All they have a weapon with better range.
2. All they look like a good option to fight Beamers mass for mass.

As there is an opinion that it's supposed to be a T4 killer, it should have one
SUGGESTION:
Take ONE of 4.
1. Make Beamer incredibly fast. This will make it a good comm-killer and will make it very microable, and will help it chase T4 more effectively.
2. Make it very durable. Give it like + 10k-15k HP.
3. Give it INSANE dps, like 4-5k.
4. Make it faster AND more durable (this way it might become the most OP-ed, I guess, being good vs bots and T4).
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Softly » 01 Jan 2013, 18:53

You just need to think about the beamers strengths a bit more, and fighting bricks is not one of them. In fact I think you would struggle to find a land experimental which is cost effective vs bricks.

Try it instead vs t1,t2, and t3 units with less range (Othuums, Harbingers, Titans, Loyalists). You'll quickly find that with some micro it can demolish these units with little or no loss of health. Its a fantastic counter to these units, which imo means it is probably on the overpowered rather than the underpowered side of things. I think this because if you look at counters to the beamer, they are either stationary (t2 pd) or require huge investment to be viable (t3 land fac followed by the most expensive t3 units, or more powerful exp)
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby Myxir » 01 Jan 2013, 19:18

also, the beamer can hover, that means you can use it to fight against navy units, or get it to the next island even with enemy subs around
Unhappy with balance http://i.imgur.com/q5G2BlM.png
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Re: If you think something in nomads is unbalanced...

Postby ColonelSheppard » 01 Jan 2013, 20:11

1. no replay
2. no replay
3. learn to use it
4. its no GC, it's even weker than ML BUT its costs are like this too
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