Scathis changes

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Scathis changes

Postby Raevn » 27 Aug 2012, 13:40

The Scathis' range has been changed from 4000 to 350, but I cannot find when then the change took place (not listed in the patch notes on the wiki).

This change removes the only long-range (ie. map-wide) weapon that Cybran had (non-exp. nukes are too easy to defend against at the later stages), making them unable to compete in late game against UEF (novax/mavor), Aeon (Salvation) or Seraphim (Exp. nuke). Once a faction has one of these up, they can switch to 100% defence, whereas Cybran then need to split their resources between defending against it and attacking. It's obvious that unless the opponent makes a massive mistake, there's no real coming back from that position (please don't suggest "don't let them build it", as that is not balancing) It is not uncommon for those experimentals to be built in the more "friendly" FFA games on 20x20 maps and larger.

Furthermore, at twice the cost of a megalith, what role does the scathis now fill? It's still not going to get built on smaller maps where it is actually in range of anything, and on larger maps if you have to get that close to a base, 2 megaliths will by far be almost always better.

I suggest reverting the range to 4000, and balancing via cost/weapon damage to make it more worthwhile.
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Ze_PilOt » 27 Aug 2012, 13:51

Fact is, as the scathis is way cheaper than any of the unit you talked about, you have the time to gain a significant advantage earlier.
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Raevn » 27 Aug 2012, 15:21

Ze_PilOt wrote:Fact is, as the scathis is way cheaper than any of the unit you talked about, you have the time to gain a significant advantage earlier.


That's only when considering it from a 1v1 perspective. FFA (4+ players) means it's relatively easy to get one up, with minimal impact to your economy, as the games last longer and a player can't sacrifice a large amount of his force on just one opponent. Also, you haven't explained when exactly the scathis is useful (ie. what is it's "niche role"?)

Also,

raevn wrote:please don't suggest "don't let them build it"


Any unit that needs this to be "balanced" shouldn't be in the game.
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Ze_PilOt » 27 Aug 2012, 15:30

We don't balance the game for FFA, sorry.

His roles are :
- The best navy defense in the game.
- The best turtle breaker before you have to rely on game ender (and probably the best base breaker even at that stage as it's super cheap and so, spammable).
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Myxir » 27 Aug 2012, 15:33

if you play ffa with 4 players and one seriously gets a 300k mass building up, you're probably only turtling and/or sleeping and far away from playing the game aggressive, as it should be played to win

having the scathis at about 65k mass cost is a serious advantage for cybran, you can kill a base full of shields with this single unit and it's far cheaper than the other buildings
and if you think that the limited range is a problem, why don't you start using stealthed t3 bombers to snipe someone ( 300k mass would be about 140 of them), and i want to see someone surviving a single pass of 140 strats
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Ze_PilOt » 27 Aug 2012, 15:33

Raevn wrote:Any unit that needs this to be "balanced" shouldn't be in the game.


If a game ender is not ending the game (and the his only counter is "Don't let him build it"), it's not a real game ender.
It's made to either make your opponent react, or die.
The scathis was NOT a real game ender (good luck to go through shields with a single one).
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Raevn » 27 Aug 2012, 16:13

Ze_PilOt wrote:We don't balance the game for FFA, sorry.


And there goes most of your player base.

To all your other points:

ShadowKnight wrote:Caution - However much you may dislike it, more defensive Ramping or Turtling strategies always have, always will, and always SHOULD be a part of all RTS games. If you go too far along certain paths which have threatened to loom in the distance of FaF's future, you will be left with the more dynamic fast-paced gameplay of T1 spam with ACU backup as the only remaining viable strategy. If this happens, by your own hand you will have killed the very purpose of FaF, which was and is to keep the game going and progressing and being played. Get rid of all but one gamestyle and you will force out a great many players.


Because quite frankly, you don't (or refuse to) understand how casual players play, and they are the majority.
I don't recall Cybran needing a massive Anti-naval exp.
On a 20x20 map it's not hard to get a large coverage of omni, so stealth is rarely an option.
Also, if there's sea, you can forget using the unit offensively.
4 player FFA can go on long enough to only scarifice a small about of resources per tick towards the experimentals. So "Game Enders" can, and frequently do, get built.

The scathis was NOT a real game ender (good luck to go through shields with a single one).

Ok, so instead of making minor tweaks to it's damage or accuracy you completely change the unit? Whatever happened to:

changes will fall under the scope of the "5 % rule". No change will goes beyond that range. That rule can be broken if it's really necessary and heavily tested.

Your changes more often fall into the 50% rule. You are making drastic changes all over the place. This was not necessary, and not heavily tested (evidenced by the lack of any notification about it in the patch notes). Also, noticed how people are calling it a bug in General discussion? Why are they doing that if it's a unit that never gets built?
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Ze_PilOt » 27 Aug 2012, 16:21

Raevn wrote:
Ze_PilOt wrote:We don't balance the game for FFA, sorry.


And there goes most of your player base.



balancing a RTS toward FFA is ridiculous at best.
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Re: Scathis changes

Postby Myxir » 27 Aug 2012, 16:22

Raevn, it's important to know that this game is not balanced for double ressource, or turtlegames like thermo and mostly not for FFA since i bet FFA is maybe 3% or less of all games
the balance changes focus mostly on 1v1 and also consider teamgames, which are the vast majority of all games played

and since balance is measured by 1v1/teamgames, and there never was a purpose to build a scathis, i don't see any problems changing this unit so drastically. also the numbers aren't made up, it's the supcom1 (vanilla) numbers where the scathis was alot more useful than the FA scathis

cybran doesn't need a high range weapon in 99% of all games since they either have a teammate who is not cybran or they can use other strategies like stealthed t3 bombers, or even build a scathis close by, maybe even 4 or 5 of them (which is about the same masscost as the previous FA scathis)


and if you really don't like the changes, why don't you either switch to another faction which still has one of your favoured game enders or try unit packs like blackops/wyvern ?
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